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Old 07-03-2007, 05:05   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabro
I’m used to a cat with two diesels, each with its own starter battery, and a separate genset. I like the redundancy of having three diesel engines capable of powering my house batteries and the nav systems, autopilot, watermaker, etc. On the Lagoon 420 it seems like I’m dependant on one genset.

Remember, the genset is not the only power source on the Lagoon 420. It regenerates. Therefore, if you lose your genet you still have the ability to store power through sailing. Without your genset you're likely to change your sailing profile. ie, you're more likely to anchor or heave to (to the extent you can) than use the batteries when there is no wind. However, the batteries will power your electronics, etc. for days while you wait. And this doesn't include the extra you can get through solar power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabro
I’m concerned with the start up problems Lagoon has experienced with the electric motors. If a manufacturer can’t get boats ready for a boat show, I just don’t know how reliable these engines can be. How will I get service in Costa Rica? At least with a diesel engine, I’m fairly confident of my own ability to do minor maintenance and I know diesel mechanics are available throughout the world.

For the first part of your point I have less concenrs. Lagoon have brought a product to market. This takes time and contains a number of variables. The boat shows won't move their dates so we got to see the Lagoon 420 during this last round of shows before all was ready. That's the way I see it. With respect to repairs, you raise reasonable questions as there a number of unknowns. How often the electric system will fail compared to a diesel is unknown and the difficulty of repair is also unknown. From my perspective I see fewer but different points of failure on the electric system. It is also modular so spares will be bought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabro
I’ve heard that the Lagoon 420 will motor around 6 knots. I would prefer to have the ability to motor faster, however this issue is not as important as 1 and 2 above.

I wonder who from. The quoted cruising speed of the Lagoon 420 is 7.2 knots with the 21.5kV genset. Top speed is a smidge higher : 7.3 knots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabro
As a result of the these concerns, we have decided to order a Leopard 43. I know this is a Lagoon thread but I would appreciate any educated comparisons between the Lagoon 42 and the Leopard 43 that the readers of this thread might offer.

I hope I've offered some corrections to the points which drove your decision. I presume you can't be talking about the electric leopard 43 as this has less electrical redundancy than the L420 does (as I explained).

I'm not sure if the above will change your mind but I want to make sure you make your decisions based on the facts as they are known.

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Old 07-03-2007, 08:43   #512
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Welcome, bulabro --

In terms of comments and comparisons, I'll start with what I think was the best piece of advice I received when we started thinking about boats: What do you intend to do with it? How much "stuff" do you expect to have with you? Getting answers to these two questions really helped us to start narrowing the range of possibilities. After that, we then developed a rather large checklist composed of items we "had" to have, things that were very desirable, and then things that would be nice to have.

We arrived at the boat shows with a beginning list of 14 boats. The Lagoon wasn't even on it. We saw the boats, asked questions, took test sails, etc. The list was narrowed to 3 or 4. Then, really so we could say we gave them a chance, we looked at the Lagoon. Well, it ended up that it had the most of the "gotta haves", "want to haves" and "would be nice to haves". That was for us, though, your list likely will be different.

When we looked at the Leopards (40 and 43, the 46 is out of our price range), they were both eliminated very quickly. For my wife, she didn't like them because of the steps inside the hulls. She tripped over them, twice. When the salesman said, "you get used to it", her response was "why should I have to?" That was for her -- may not bother you in the least. She also didn't like the galley and found the storage (for both galley and personal clothing/items) to be insufficient. I found the bridgedeck clearance to be insufficient, I saw stress fractures in the davits (on a new boat), and the headroom was lacking in the relatively smaller salon.

Some of our problems with the Leopards are definitely related to our intended use (long-term cruising). These may not be issues for someone else's intended use, though. Indeed, the compromises made that resulted in those problems (for us) may actually be benefits for someone else.

I'm really not concerned about having "only one" diesel. Monohulls typically only have one. As ess105 pointed out, regeneration and that generous battery capacity does provide some redundancy in the event of unrepairable failure of the genset. (I would also point out, though, that Onan gensets have received the most favorable ratings from the ARC participants, I believe for a couple of years now.)

Lots of folks are wondering if Lagoon can really "pull it off" and deliver a reliable boat. Well, it worked in Miami -- I was on it. That same boat is, as we write/speak, on the way to Oakland. It got from Miami to the Panama Canal in 9 days, which means that it had to have some pretty good runs mixed in there to do so. It will be doing the long bash up the Mexican/California coast to Oakland. This 4500 to 5000 mile trip will be the best real world test of the boat and the reliability of it.

If what you're looking for is a comfortable, efficient, family-sized, ocean-capable cruiser (for moderate latitudes, not Patagonia) that will take on lots of comfort items, then the 420 should be seriously considered. If you want a racer/cruiser, or a minimalist cruiser, then no. If you're looking for a Caribbean island-hopper that won't stray too far from civilization, then lots of boats will fill that.

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Old 07-03-2007, 19:29   #513
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pirate They must have dumped the batteries overboard.

Yes, I received conformation of the L420’s excellent passage from Miami to the Panama Canal as well. Somehow Lagoon’s designers built a boat that actually sails well in the real world. Although I would never doubt the “experts” on this board, it seems that the frequent anti-L420 design comments posted here may in fact be wrong. I guess Marc Van Peteghem and Vincent Lauriot Prévost know a little more about catamaran design those trapped inside a 30 year old design philosophy box.

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Old 09-03-2007, 07:59   #514
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OSSA Generator Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420
AW,

Another fact from the Onan site. Dry weight 870 lbs without sound shield, and 930 lbs. with sound sheild. The 420 comes with the sound sheild.

Did your friends at OSSA tell you that they already replaced the "beta" generator on Tony's elec. 4300, to the new "permanent" one? What was that all about?

Fair Sailing _(\_
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I can shed some light on the second comment: Electric Leopard was built in December 2005 in Cape Town. At that time the GB 25kW OSSA gen was a new product, and I got a preproduction unit, which, when we actually measured it, put out about 18kW - a little low. We decided to deal with this at a later time.

The gen ran fine for the year and a bit until Miami, but given the press interest and also because we were going to do some extensive propeller/performance testing after the show, GB decided to put their best foot forward and so they replaced the gen with a new production unit off the line. (The old gen still works fine, and is being upgraded to the latest firmware, etc.) The new gen appears to develop about 26kW, which is nice. I can feel the difference in boat performance with a little more power.

BTW, prop testing is now complete and we're analyzing the data. More on the eLeopards forum later.

Cheers, Tony
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:04   #515
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E43 and L420

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabro
As a result of the these concerns, we have decided to order a Leopard 43. I know this is a Lagoon thread but I would appreciate any educated comparisons between the Lagoon 42 and the Leopard 43 that the readers of this thread might offer.
Thanks,
Bulabro
Hi, Bulabro:

A lot of your questions have/are being discussed on the R&C Electric Leopards thread. However, I'd be delighted to give you a call and we can chat about my experiences with Electric Leopard, if you like. Send me a private message with your contact info and I'll call you.

Regards, Tony
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:42   #516
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Some OSSA/eLeopard info...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute Wind
Aloha All,
I have returned from the Miami Boat show more educated and more excited about buying a catamaran then ever. The trip was very worthwhile, as I was able to inspect several boats from several manufactures an speak to factory reps in person. Here is a summary of my findings.

Two manufactures showcased their electric catamarans. They were Lagoon and Leopard. The electric motors of the Lagoon 420 are powered by batteries with a backup single speed diesel Onan generator. This is called a Hybrid arrangement. The E-Leopard is a true diesel-electric system with electric motors powered by a variable speed diesel generator.

On the plus side the Lagoon 420 can motor around on batteries without having to run the generator. The Lagoon can also generate power while under sail and charge up the batteries conserving fuel. Sounds great except for five big problems.

1. Having batteries and equipment between the generator and the electric motors means for every HP output from the generator you only get 0.56 HP down at the electric motors.
Reference: Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.
2. The batteries weigh a lot and will require replacement after a few years.
3. When the boat is running the AC for cooling or the reverse cycle for heating the generator must be running. I.E. You can’t power the HVAC off the batteries.
4. The constant speed generator consumes fuel at a constant speed and the Lagoon rep was pushing for the larger generator. All surplus electrical generation by the generator is lost.
5. According to the Leopard rep, the oil on the generator should be changed every 100 hours. The rep claimed that is per manufacturer recommendation. If you run the HVAC a lot, that means an oil change every 5 to 10 days.

The extra fuel the Lagoon 420 generator will consume while powering the HVAC system, or when motoring with depleted batteries, will dent the fuel savings obtained from generating power while under sail. The degree to which the electrical power plant design will hurt Lagoon 420 fuel consumption will depend on operating habits. If the HVAC is run frequently and motors are run for hours at moderated speeds the fuel consumption of the Lagoon 420 will be high.

The key difference with the e-Leopard is they based their design on a more fuel efficient variable speed generator. It is coupled closer to the electric motors. It is a true diesel-electric system by OSSA POWERLITE®. Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories. There are four big advantages to this route:

1. No intervening heavy battery banks means higher fuel efficiency.
2. Lower fuel consumption during moderate loads and while running HVAC.
3. Oil change is recommended every 500 hours.
4. The weight of the generator is about 1/2 that of the Onan. I looked at that Onan at the Miami boat show and the very first thought I had was that thing has to weigh a ton. I was about 1/2 right. It over 1/2 a ton.

Clearly to me, the power plant of the e-Leopard was a far better choice. However, the e-Leopard isn’t a perfect boat. The sloping main salon means ½ of the salon area is too short for a person of my height to stand upright. I also hit my head in the cabin areas. Since I intend to live aboard the boat I eventually buy this represents a real problem to me. I would feel more closed in by being excluded ½ of the boat.

If Lagoon can be convinced to abandon the hybrid approach and switch to a true diesel-electric system they would have the best of both worlds.

Lagoon also had on display a Lagoon 440. Besides being larger, the helm is located way up high where you can easily see over the main salon. Additionally all the sheets are presented directly in front of you all nice and neat. A new Lagoon 440 is out of my price range however, a Lagoon with a few years on it would be in my range for two reasons. The owner would have purchased it before the Euro went through the roof so his purchase price would have been much lower. Also there are the initial years of depreciation. Another compensating factor is a used Lagoon may very well be tricked out with more equipment. Specifically I found a used Lagoon with a washing machine and water maker.

The surprise of the show for me was a boat manufactured by Dean. The Dean 441 was very impressive. Additionally, unlike Lagoon, they made it clear that they were willing to customize a new boat to suit my needs. For example I am convinced I want 4 foot lighting grounding strips on both hulls for freshwater sailing. I am also thinking of getting a diesel heating system for when it is too cold for reverse cycle. Everything for Lagoon meant after market contractor work. I just feel more comfortable having modifications done in the factory particularly when through hull items are involved.

Dean can be found at this link:

Dean Catamarans - Specifications of DEAN 441

Another item I really liked about Dean is the shower was separate from the head. I’ve never liked the idea of having a shower in the head. Truthfully, I don’t remember which boats also had this feature. Another small item I found important to me is the size of the kitchen sink. Alternately in the case of the Lagoon 440, an outdoor sink looked like a great idea too. I think the Lagoon 440 intends this sink for cocktails, however, I liked the idea of using it for cleaning fish. Yeah, call me an odd ball. I hope to catch some fish while sailing and read up on suggestions how to do it well.

Dean didn’t discuss any plans to have a diesel-electric version of their boat. However, based upon the hype I think all manufactures must be thinking about it.
Great writeup, thanks!

A couple of comments:
  • Glacier Bay/OSSA Powerlite configurations can be designed with a propulsion/HVDC battery bank. However, the eLeopard project team consciously decided not to configure eLeopards this way because of what we saw was the normal mode of use for over 90% of these boats - short-haul sailing/chartering. We felt that regen wouldn't give us enough benefit in this mode of use to be worth the weight and complexity. It's simply a horses-for-courses decision.
  • My opinion (not data) is that the jury's out on the question of how long the battery bank life will be given normal use. Time will tell. The recent issue of Cruising World has a battery cycling article in it which makes for interesting reading. We need more info like this.
  • Yes, OSSA gens are DC, and are variable speed. We're going to do some fuel measurements in due course, but our sense for now is that we're burning about 6l/hour at full (25kW) load. Need the data though. (We've just done prop testing in Fort Lauderdale and are analyzing the prop data).
  • The GB OSSA Powerlite motors communicate their load demands to the gen via a CANbus network many times per second. When a boat travels up a wave, it needs more power than when it surfs down the back side. The OSSA system dials up the gen power on the way up and dials it down on the back side to save fuel, but, again, it's obviously dependent on weather conditions and needs to be measured more carefully (quite difficult).
  • Oil changes: The OSSA gen needs new oil every 500H. Most diesels need changes at 100H -- the L420 every 200H, I hear. One of the reasons for frequent oil changes is to deal with the undesirable effects of wet-stacking - i.e. when you run a gen at speed but with a light load. This tends to foul things up, like the oil. If you keep gens running at the right speed/load points, wet-stacking is much reduced. The OSSA systems design tries to do this.
  • The OSSA design focuses on simplicity and aspires to achieve reliability by this approach. Also, it's single voltage (i.e. no conversions, except for charging the 12V house bank and for 100VAC inverter for "convenience" loads like my wife's hairdryer).
  • The OSSA 25kW gen weighs 546 lbs, the 20HP electric motors 146 each.
I think you've got the other pros/cons right - no regen, no battery backup power for propulsion - must run the gen to move the boat or power the air. (You can configure a second OSSA DC gen if you want redundancy, but you might get a laugh out of knowing that you can also plug in a small 240VAC portable gen via the shore power connector to maneuver the boat if you have to!)

You're right about the sloping saloon roof - I like the L420 better, but I tend to spend most of my time out back, so it wasn't a major factor for me.

Horses for courses.

Tony
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:43   #517
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I do not think hybrid systems work as described by AbsoluteWinds. Generator is run at constant speed because it is run at its more efficient speed/load. If there is no need for full power, generator does not run. No power is lost if not needed, because it is stored in batteries. If batteries are fully charged, generator stops and batteries provide the power until they are about 80% discharged at which time generator kicks back in and recharges the batteries again, again at its maximum efficiency.

BTW, not sure if it is true, but I understand that CRD engines are not serviceable by amateurs and there are only few shops that would touch them, even in the US. Before venturing too far, I would check how far it is to nearest CRD-certified mechanic. Just a thought...
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:08   #518
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Generator Load-Matching & Wet Stacking:

In order for a diesel engine to operate at peak efficiency it must be able to provide fuel and air in the proper ratio, and at a high enough engine temperature for the engine to completely burn all of the fuel.

Diesel engines perform most efficiently in the 60-80% range of rated output. “Wet Stacking” (or over-fueling) is a common problem with diesel engines which are operated for extended periods with light or no loads applied. When a diesel engine operates without sufficient load, it will not attain it’s optimum operating temperature [*1]. Any time you run a generator at less that 30 percent load you run the risk of “wet stacking”.

“Wet Stacking” is an accumulation of unburned oil and fuel in the exhaust system [*2], producing a black gooey secretion around the exhaust connections. If black smoke continues to plume from the exhaust, even though the generator set is under a constant load, this can also be an indication of wet stacking.

The result of this condition is a decrease in engine efficiency and performance (due to fouling of the fuel injectors [*3], engine valves and exhaust system, including turbochargers); which will ultimately result in failure [*4].

*1. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 110 stipulates exhaust-stack temperatures, to prevent wet stacking, based on generator size. The manufacturer of the engine generator set should provide the recommended stack temperature required to meet NFPA 110 requirements.

*2. The piston rings in a diesel engine seal better as load increases. At light load the rings let a slight bit of oil past the rings into the combustion chamber. The engines cylinder temp is directly related to it's load, at light load the cylinder temp may not be high enough to completely burn the excess oil and the fuel that is injected.
Due to emissions regulations engine timing has been retarded within the last 10 years which decreases cylinder temperature. Wet stacking from timing is related to the newer electronically controlled engine that change timing due to load.

*3. The injector tips carbonize and disrupt the fuel spray pattern.

*4. If minimal over fueling has already occurred, it can be corrected by running the engine (in excess of 80% full load) for several hours to remove the unburned fuel from the exhaust system.
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Old 18-03-2007, 09:15   #519
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Does anyone know if there will be a Lagoon 420 at the Oakland show?
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Old 18-03-2007, 09:23   #520
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The same boat that toured the East coast shows is on it's way to the Oakland show. As mentioned in an earlier post, it made great time down to Panama from Flrodia. I hear that despite much encouragement of the officials, it's Panama transit was delayed far longer than hoped. It's now up to whether or not it can bash it's way up the West coast in time.

I really hope it makes it so more people can see what a great boat this is.

Steve
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Old 18-03-2007, 10:22   #521
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What does the current delivery schedules look like for the 420's. Several charter companies seem to be in a near panic over the delays and one company stated it has already cost them over 50,000 dollars in revenue. Boats are being blocked by charter companies at other companies into the fall to cover for 420 bookings. Will the boats be that late?
George
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Old 18-03-2007, 10:33   #522
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420s are now being handed over to owners. I'm expecting mine (#20) in the first week in April. The forecast delivery dates for hulls 11 and upwards have remained unchanged for some time now. I know there are a number of interested parties on this board so I'll let you all know how I get on.

From what I can tell from Lagoon's current delivery schedule they'll be popping 2 Lagoon 420s a week from their twin production lines this year.

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Old 18-03-2007, 12:32   #523
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As Tony has described in his experiences with the Leopard prototype, there are a number of things that come up that even the best, most conscientious engineers can't anticipate. They just have to get some boats in the water and get some miles under them before they realize that an issue may even exist. From what has been described, Leopard/GB has one boat in the water (Tony's) and they are continuing to learn/adjust/modify. I will bet you that if they had two or three such boats, the rate of their learning/adjusting/modifying would be much greater. But, you have to do with what you have.

Lagoon has had three 420's in the water, taking them to shows in N. America and Europe, and learning much from the experience. They've also had e-boats in the water (albeit different models) for the last 4 years. In Miami, the factory rep described over 300 modifications they've made for the production boats. Some of these modifications are pretty substantial (changing the sprit/pushpit/genaker furler parts; reworking the ventilation systems for the motors/controllers) and others are pretty minor (changing the locations of AC outlets). But, all of these are things they learned only after the prototype factory boats hit the water. They needed to experience it in order to find the issue.

The fact that the company is willing to slow down the delivery of the first customer boats, while frustrating, in order to make sure that all of those modifications are done and working properly, must also be reassuring to the owner. They will know that they are not getting a "beta version" boat, but the "release version".

I was recently advised that my delivery date has not slipped and remains what it has been for the last six months.

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Old 18-03-2007, 12:47   #524
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Smile 420 Delivery Delays

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767
What does the current delivery schedules look like for the 420's. ... George
George

I'm being told that my boat, hull #58, will be delivered at the end of July; it was originally scheduled for June, so the delays are not too bad considering the revolutionary technology being employed.

Apparently, the boats have been piling up at the end of the production line while they sorted some last minute glitches with the software that controls the genset. I gather the backlog are all beginning to come out of the factory now.

Chris
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Old 18-03-2007, 16:26   #525
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Gentlemen,

Has Lagoon assisted in training mechanics on electric motor repairs in BVI? As new as the technology is, I would assume TMM, Catamaran Company and any other charter company who has 420's in their fleet would have a qualified mechanic. The shared inventory of parts specific to the 420 was also an excellent idea. We are chartering Douglas' Martha R in mid June. We saw the 420 at the Miami Boat Show and were very impressed with it's roominess, cockpit layout, salon, and the seating area behind the tramp.

Evan
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