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Old 11-10-2006, 09:40   #31
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Drifter, I hope you are right.

But since the Lagoon-people are used to starting new series (e.g. 440, 500) it could well be more than the usual problems... - which we don´t hope.

Are you aware of anyone having sailed one of the boats up to now?
Have you any information whether or when Lagoon will offer "normal" engines?

Well let´s hope that they get it all sorted out and that we will become proud owners of the boat of the year!
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Old 11-10-2006, 10:11   #32
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Hi, Don --

Well, I hope I'm right, too! Seriously, though, there have been many other production boats that went through major revisions before they were finally satisfied with them. The difference is that those revisions usually stretched over years and didn't involve such different technologies. In the case of the 420, Lagoon learned a lot about hull designs in the 440 and 500 that they've already incorporated with the 420. The issues here are with the hybrid technology. Both Honda and Toyota had their problems with the first production runs of the Insight and Prius, too. But, they got them worked out and they are now very reliable.

All that I'm hearing indicates that Lagoon has never intended to offer diesels on this boat. It would require a complete re-engineering to do so, probably also including some hull changes. I wouldn't hold out hope for that. If you've got concerns enough about the hybrid to want to opt out of it (which, of course, is a decision only you can make), then I think you would be best off looking at a different boat.

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Old 11-10-2006, 10:14   #33
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ID - I think your comments are sound. There are always teething issues with new products. We're seeing some of the effects merely because of timing. I am disappointed only because I had hoped to hear more, sooner. But I can wait. I remind myself of the following:

1) Diesel/Electric is 90-100 year old technology
2) Lagoon (as part of the broader Beneteau Group) have much at stake. They can only be motivated to make this a success.

I urge that we let this one play out.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:40   #34
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A friend is looking at the lagoon 440 and 420 now. Does anyone have any polars they can share on the sailing performance?
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Old 11-10-2006, 13:28   #35
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We just returned from Annapolis as well. We were disappointed at not being able to sail on the 420. The problem that kept the boat from going out was described to us as a bad solenoid. They sailed the boat from the show area to the Lagoon dock on one engine but they didn't want to take people out with just one engine working. We did spend a little over two hours on the boat asking questions and inspecting systems that you couldn't really get to while the boat show was on. In the end, we probably learned more about the boat spending two hours getting answers from the Lagoon folks than we would have learned on a demo sail.

On the plus side, we were very happy with what we saw. The boat is spacious. It's difficult to tell the difference between the 420 salon and the 440 salon. I'm 6'2", and there is plenty of headroom everywhere. The deck is wide and easy to get around. The cockpit area seems huge for a 40ish catamaran. We looked at almost every other cat in the 40 to 44 range and we liked the 420 best. The charter layout, which we are getting, was nicer than I was expecting.

Charlie

P.S. I was wrong. Our anticipated hull number is 66 (I thought it was 77). I say anticipated because the Lagoon folks say that no one has an assigned number yet, just estimated numbers. Our date, ex factory, is still somewhere around Sept. '07. I guess the good news is that means there will be 65 boats ahead of us for Lagoon to work the bugs out. On the other hand, if anyone is thinking about dropping out, don't let me discourage you. Maybe I'll move up on the list and get my boat sooner.
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Old 11-10-2006, 14:47   #36
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Hi, Charlie --

Nice to hear your impressions. Did you get any pictures? If so, could you post them?

Thanks.

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Old 11-10-2006, 14:49   #37
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Oh, a P.S.: Sounds like a solenoid may be one of those things to put in the spare parts bin!

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Old 11-10-2006, 15:17   #38
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Indeed. There will be plenty of room for the solenoid when you empty the spares box of all your old diesel parts.
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Old 11-10-2006, 16:01   #39
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I have heard additional information. Because of the rush to get to the show, the required burn in for the electrical components (testing that flushes out the bad items) could not be performed. All we're seeing is symptoms of a delay to the schedule which is normal in of itself.
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Old 11-10-2006, 16:07   #40
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Yup -- that's the sort of thing that would be skipped in the rush. What would the odds be that a bad part would show up? Directly proportional to the importance of the mission!

Another reason that when we pick up ours, I'd like to spend at least 4 to 6 weeks hanging out close to the factory with the expressed intent of trying to break as many of the parts as I can. That's why they call it "shakedown".

Any news on whether they got it running for the CW testers?

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Old 11-10-2006, 16:59   #41
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Drifter, ESS,

I think I am getting affected by your enthusiasm... :-)

From what I learn from your postings, is there a chance that they catch up with their deliveries in 07? When was your No. 66 meant to be delivered in the first place?

Whatever happens, whatever remote island we should get lost with our hybrid-toys: We have this forum to keep ourthelves in a good mood...

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Old 11-10-2006, 17:10   #42
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Up until the recent news, I was being told that my boat (#66?) would be the first boat out of the factory in July, 2007. Now the prediction is 'sometime in September.' So I've been set back at least two months.
The overall delay may be closer to one month, because the vacation month of August throws things off. My understanding of European production schedules suggests that not much is expected during August. It could be that when my early July date was pushed back one month, it actually turned into two months.
The question may be do you want the last boat to come off the line just before vacation starts, or the first one produced after the vacation period? Or neither? I don't think I have any control over it. Wish me luck.

Charlie
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Old 11-10-2006, 18:12   #43
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[quote=ess105]Indeed. My post from the other site:

[quote=Alan Wheeler]

You can certainly become more efficient at converting energy, (i.e. Sunlight to Electricity)
You can certainly obtain more energy per square ft by converting greater energy bandwidths(i.e. wider energy spectrum= -infrared-visible light-Ultraviolet)

Has anybody commenting here ever been to BFK's factory and seen the product? Put a tester on it? There seems to be a lot of he said she said and that's just impossible stuff going down here! (as well as other sites) I’ve been speaking over the last 2 days with Dave Tether, the inventor of the electric drive motors on the L420 about these panels and the feasibility of using them 24 hours a day to motor sail. He says he's been doing that as often as he can the last few years on his boat with diesel backup, and sees absolutely no problem in doing so. You might know, he is the inventor and patent holder of the electric drive/generator motors, from when he owned STI, and later sold it to move to Bénéteau and develop the L420, we were on hull #2 at the boat show. When I spoke about the
DBK Grid-Tie Photovoltaic (PV) Power Panels as the power source instead of the generator, he said go look at them, put a meteor on it, if it works, count me in. I said there’s a lot of “that’s impossible!” comebacks out there! His comment was, that’s exactly what they said when I announced my discovery, because there was established math that supposedly proved I was wrong. I knew they were wrong, so I built it and guess what, proved them wrong. So the proof is in the pudding, put a tester on it, if it puts out 3000W, call me. They are not that far away, so I'll just go down there and do that and then I’ll know!

PS. Was good to see you guys at the show!! Too bad one of the contactors went out so we didn’t get our ride but hay the in depth show and tell on the boat as just as well considering there was no wind anyway! As well as getting the first brochure and DVD was great! Nicholas, USA Lagoon, said she did 6 kts on no wind with one motor. Not bag dad!!

Re- "sunken cockpit" There are (2) 1"1/2 drains in the well in front of the sliding door.

Re- "Contactor" Dave Tether said he didn’t bring any along with him and they were not at Napa auto parts. Something like 450V X 12Kw? Anyway he said if it were mine I would just press it in and it would work, but the boss won’t let me do that. I’ll have one tomorrow at the airport. (Tells me that even under all the pressure to get it running, they wont to do it right) Easy thing to put in the spare parts bin, even a spare drive controller, (Black- large lunch box sized thing down there with the motor, $1,200 bucks) I’ll have one of those to!

Steve M.
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Old 11-10-2006, 18:54   #44
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$1200 for the controller. That actually sounds cheap, once you've priced out a Volvo saildrive!

That's another reason I like the 420 -- no saildrives! Simple shaft, and no tranny. Any of you guys note what sort of shaft seal system they used? I'm hoping the old traditional, and reliable.

RE: Delivery dates; it is somewhat of a dilemma. Basically, most of France goes on holiday in August. Without advance preparation and a couple of mafioso for help, getting anything done in August is not likely. The point analagous to the Monday-Friday cars is interesting. Do I want someone who's just daydreaming about vacation, or someone who just got back? I think I'll take the "just got back".

Another issue is actually trying to get out of the Bay of Biscay (assuming you are picking up at the factory, like us). The best times are supposed to be in June and July, with increasing risk of Atlantic gales and what can be very rough seas as the year progresses, particularly into November. (I have no wish to witness what this photo illustrates!) It is 300 miles of lee shore! That's the problem with receiving the boat in mid to late Sept. I'm figuring at least a month, probably 6 weeks, to complete outfitting and shakedown while close to the factory. That puts us getting out of France in late October - early November. No, thanks.

So, if that turns out to be the date, then we're thinking about delaying delivery until March. That actually would let us spend some time in the Med, maybe even go ahead and spend a year there.

What do you folks think?

ID
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Old 11-10-2006, 19:29   #45
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So ID is it your plan to then sail to the USA or West Indies?

If so, doesn't the Arc cross the Atlantic about that time? I know there are a bunch of cruising boats in and around the Canaries about to cross right now.

Mind you a summer in the Med sounds like a good idea to me.
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