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Old 17-01-2007, 09:48   #361
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I was surprised that the log of the Fastcat 435 didn't mention anything about wind speed and sea conditions in his daily data. Don't most log books give you a spot to enter such data? I hope my delivery captain will log wind and water data, along with speed. Seems like another question to ask.

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Old 17-01-2007, 09:54   #362
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The question in my analysis was not "Is Sir Henri (the Outremer) faster than the other boats?" -- the overall time result is sufficient to answer that question. My question was: "Do lighter displacement boats (plural) have shorter crossing times?" It is specifically phrased this way in order to test the hypothesis that weight makes a difference.

Using the performance of a single boat is not a good way to determine this, since it allows for other, uncontrolled, factors to be responsible for making the difference. For example, this specific Outremer, Sir Henri, has been in a number of ARC's over the years (even won, overall, in 2001). To pair up a very experienced captain and boat against another boat where this may well be their first ocean crossing, ever (the ARC is often used this way), even if they are in the same model of boat, is not a good way to test the hypothesis. Hence, if you want to test the question as I phrased it, above, you really must use group data.

It is unfortunate that we don't seem to have good data that includes both (1) more boats of the same model in the same conditions, and (2) a wider variety of boat models. But, that's the way it seems to be.

As I discussed in the other thread, races (at least short ones of 3 days or less) would not be a good way to test the hypothesis because there is not enough variability in conditions. They don't reflect a long-term passage, either in weather/sea state variability or in loading characteristics, which is the interest of cruisers.

The FastCat table is only of minimal interest to me. (By the way, for CatManDo, you can see the FastCat at: African Cats: comfortable lightweight performance leisure catamarans I like the way they do some things. Be sure and check out their inventory sheets, you will like that not only do they include a variety of options and prices, but they also tell you the cost/benefit of each, in terms of the effect on the weight of the boat. So, Dave, you can see exactly where the weight is going, or where you've lost weight. I do wish other manufacturers would do the same.) The reason that the data are of only minimal interest, though, is because the table doesn't tell us enough about winds and sea states. Plus, we don't know how other boats would do in the same conditions. You can guess that the 420, or another boat, would be slower, but you don't know this to be true. No one does.

And, as I also mentioned in the original analysis, I would love to see some data on the Australian boats. Does anybody have some? I'm not talking about anecdotal stories, I'm talking about passage-making comparisons to a variety of boats under the same conditions.

One final comment, at least for now: Factor, I'm really not interested in being called names. If the best you can do in stating your thoughts is to resort to immature, ad hominem insults, then you would likely have much more fun taking it elsewhere. Some of the unmoderated newsgroups would likely result in more entertaining verbal fistfights.

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Old 17-01-2007, 10:52   #363
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Copied from African cat website

To add to the discussion, this is the point of view of Africat regarding speed. Another boatbuilder who has an opinion!
Btw I am not affiliated with Africats and have no interest in the company. I just thought it would be nice to have one more opinion to this heated discussion on speed / performance and weight.
regards, Frank
---------------------------------------------
The Art of Speed
Numerous books have been written on the science of sailing (For those who really want to get into the theory one of the best books on the subject is “Sailing Theory and Practice” by Czeslaw A. Marchaj). It is not our intent to write a scientific treatise on this subject, but rather to concentrate on the crucial factors, which affect the speed of a boat. Through out this Website we have emphasized the need to keep the weight low in order to maximize speed. Those of you who have ever raced know from experience that light is fast. We will explain why this is the case.
Sailboats are driven forward by the forces derived from their sails. Their speed is limited by the resistance of the wind and the water to their forward motion. These forces together are collectively known as drag. By far the biggest component of drag is caused by the hull going through the water. There are three main contributing factors to the hydraulic forces that slow down your boat. The first is frictional drag of the water flowing by the hull. This is dependant on the amount of surface area in the water and what the surface consists of. If your boat bottom has a good antifouling agent and is smooth its drag will be less than if it has sea growth. You can think of this as the difference between running your fingers on Teflon or sandpaper. This drag is the predominant slowing factor in light air situations.
Another contributor to drag is known as form drag. This is caused by discontinuities in the hull such the rudders, propellers, and the through hull tubes used to vent liquids etc. This is best illustrated by sticking your hand out your car door window under speed. If the palm of your hand is facing the direction of motion you will feel a fair amount of force. This force will decline as you turn your hand palm down so as to expose only the edge of your hand to the oncoming air. As in the case of frictional drag it is predominant in lighter airs and increases with the square of the boat speed. Put another way, if you double your speed the drag increases four fold.
The third component of drag, known as wave drag, limits the maximum speed of a boat and it is also the most difficult to explain and visualize. It is the limiter of maximum speed because this drag increases by the cube of boat speed unlike the first two components which increase by the square. Put another way; doubling your speed increase wave drag eight times! Wave drag is caused by the boat pushing the water out of its way as it moves forward. It’s easy to see this wave at the bow of a boat. As the speed increases the amount of water that needs to be pushed out of the way also increase and this makes the wave deeper. Finally the wave gets so deep and long that the boat is literally trapped in it. At this point it takes a huge amount of power to make the boat go even a little faster. How does weight affect these issues and especially wave drag? Patience, read on.
If you’ve read this far you undoubtedly have heard the term “hull speed” from your other readings and experiences. Hull speed is the speed at which the boat will go no faster without application of a huge amount of force. For all practical purposes this is the maximum speed of the boat and is caused purely by wave drag. The typical formula for hull speed, especially recited by the monohull guys is that it is equal to 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length. This is an approximation. You know it is an approximation from your own sailing experiences. Many the sailor of a 25-foot monohull has seen a 16-foot hobie cat go whizzing by them as if they were glued to the water. Now how could that be possible given that the square root of 16 (4) is smaller than the square root of 25 (5)? Something is missing.
The missing element in the approximate equation quoted above is the water line width. That hobie is going by you because its hulls are much narrower than yours are. It still has a hull speed because it is still displacing water but its knife like hulls displace a lot less of it then your 8 foot wide beam. This is where weight becomes crucial. A light boat requires less submerged width in the water than does a heavier one. So by keeping our African Cats very light we can keep the crucial water line width to a minimum and achieve a high maximum hull speed. We use an 11:1 ratio for waterline length to width.
The following polars (Polars courtesy of Angelo Lavranos) are different than any you have probably ever seen before. Typically polars show theoretical boat speed vs. true wind angle and true wind speed. The next diagram shows boat performance at 16 knots of wind speed vs. boat weight. The sail configurations are for main and jib only and show the performance of an African Cat 435 Vector-K boat.
Catamarans are often criticized for their lack of upwind performance. Even though the heavy boat has decent upwind speed at 45º, the light displacement boat is as fast at 40º as the heaviest boat is at 50º! A ten degree difference in pointing ability is huge! Now consider that most 43 foot cats on the market weigh in excess of 12,000 KGs loaded. It is clear from the trend in these charts that they will not point well at all.
The advantages of lighter weight on performance don’t stop at close hauled. It is only at close to dead down wind with no spinnaker that the weight advantage is minimal. Other implications of light weight include:
• Less sail area required for equal performance (ease of handling and safer)
• Higher load carrying capability with equal performance



What I would also am curious about is the engine performance of the Lagoon 420. A heavy catamaran, with 2 electric engines instead of the 56 or 75 HP twin engines that are found in the Lagoon 440 which has the same displacement.
At the end of the day, horsepower = horsepower, regardles of the fact where it comes from. That would leave the 420 underpowered?
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Old 17-01-2007, 13:14   #364
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Hard to believe the mono guy is here defending the Lagoon 420 but I think it will be just what the owners wanted. It will have a good resale and is supported by a large company with good engineering and financing.

The boat looks fine, it should sail like any other 42 footer, and it has plenty of room for a family to enjoy long term cruising in the Caribbean and the Med.

I also think it will be loaded like any other 42 footer. It will sail with 6-8,000 of gear aboard. Sails, people, ground tackle, water, fuel, extra batteries, food, dingy, engine, bedding, toys, cooking utensiles, power cords, instruments, radios, charts, wind generators, solar panels, computers, DVD's/CD's, TV's, cleaning supplies, hoses, spare parts, and on and on, it all adds up.

I am highly supect when a factory team makes a long passage and says how fast the boat was because you know the boat was sailed in very light trim. Make it a cruiser and then see how it does.

Finally, who the hell wants to cruise at 10 knots? Not me, the boat motion is not good unless you have a whole lotta waterline and weight. Our polars indicate we can sail from the Chesapeake to St Martin in a little over 6 days with the right weather window. I'll tell you right now we'll never do it. It would be 6 days of heavy motion pushing the boat hard. It's easier to back of and sail at 8-9 and get there a day later.

Cruising is cruising, racing is racing. They are not the same thing, not even close.
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Old 17-01-2007, 14:59   #365
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gee the polar information is pretty good as fpr who wants to cruise at 10 knots, idf that 10 kn can be achieved in only 16 knots of wind, how on earth can you say that would be uncomfortable, the sea state at 16kn is not even there, also a cat rides a lot differnt to a mono (i have sailed both) and what is uncomfortable on a mono isnt always on a cat, 10 kn means you get there earlier and can enjoy a dive and a fish with the sun still up
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Old 17-01-2007, 16:19   #366
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ID, Great post on the ARC results, and how they relate to displacement.

I would like to add an example that might clarify what POTA's was referring to in his post about increased volume hulls. Lets say Abe & Ben both build boats to take their families on a cruise. Abe wants his boat to be sleek & fast, while Ben know his family will bring way to much gear, so he will build more of a barge. To simplify things (the math) both builders will work with square hulls. Abe builds a hull that is 1 unit wide and 6 units high, if you can visualize this, and his buddy Ben builds his hull twice as big by using a hull 4 units wide and 3 units high, for a total volume of 12 units. For simplicity, lets assume that when launched both boat sank down 1 unit as Bens boat weighs twice that of Abes. They go out for a sail an Abe's boat is far superior on all points of sail. Why is this? If you look at their wetted surface' Abe is displacing 1 square unit or down 1 unit across 1 unit and back up one unit to the waterline, or a total of 3 linear units of wetted surface; while on the other hand thier is Ben's design, with displacement of down 1 unit over 4 units across the bottom and then back up 1 unit to the waterline to give a total wetted surface of 6 linear units or twice that of Abe. Abe wins hands down.

The next day they go out again, but this time each takes their family and all the gear on board for a race, and after careful calculation they find that both boats have taken on exactly the same amount of extra weight. This time Ben wins on most points of sail, how could this be? Lets say that when Ben loaded on his family and gear on board that his boat sank 1 more unit down. so now he is displacing 4 more square units in volume for a total of 8 units. When Abe adds his family and gear to his boat he must displace the same amonut of water, or 4 units. This would would make his hull down 5 units, over 1 unit across the bottom and then back up 5 units to the waterline, for a total wetted surface of 11 linear units. Ben's hull would be down 2 units, across the bottom for 4 units and back up 2 units to the waterline, for a total of 8 linear units of total wetted surface area. Now Ben's barge has less wetted area than Abe's flier, and thus goes faster.

Just by adding gear and family, Abe's wetted surface area increased by a wopping 266%, but when Ben added his family and gear he only increased his wetted surface by 33%. This is what they mean when talking about overloading a cat, not necessarily the starting weight or displacement. The back of the 420 hulls are wide and squared off for this very reason. As Lagoon has said this wide design will also help with start up squatting.

I sure hope you all could follow my example, because with my typing speed this dicussion takes forever.

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Old 17-01-2007, 16:32   #367
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Frank,

Your post was very informative, but I have a question on the polar chart. Was this a polar of one hull (the 435) loaded to different weights. From their published displacement figure of 6500K, that would make them (the 435) the lime green line, right. Are the other colored lines simply a 435's hulls loaded to different displacements, or other hull designs?

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Old 17-01-2007, 18:14   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420
Just by adding gear and family, Abe's wetted surface area increased by a wopping 266%, but when Ben added his family and gear he only increased his wetted surface by 33%. This is what they mean when talking about overloading a cat, not necessarily the starting weight or displacement. The back of the 420 hulls are wide and squared off for this very reason. As Lagoon has said this wide design will also help with start up squatting.
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For this example I will again use the Fusion 40 [actually 42] as it is a charter cat built in survey as is the Lagoon 42.[actually 41.4]

Published empty displacement of Lagoon 420 = 11200kg
Published empty displacement of Fusion 40 = 4125kg

So the Lagoon can carry the extra payload because it has wider hull.

If for example the Fusion 40 had wider hulls to the same BWL as the Lagoon we could also assume it could carry a similar payload.

Would this extra width in the Fusion 40's hull increase the build weight by 7075 kg ?

I think not.

I doubt that it would increase the build weight by any more than 1500kg at a guess, and again, I am being overly generous in my guestimate.

With the Fusion's current sail area of 157m2, compared to the Lagoon's 97.92m2 how could they possibly sail at the same or similar speeds?


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Old 17-01-2007, 20:57   #369
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I can tend to agree with your scenario if the boats are both traveling at very slow speed and assuming sail areas are the same for both. The but is, as speed increases the wetted surface drag component becomes minor compared to wave making drag. I don't know enough to suggest a formula to determine this effect but I would suspect that comparing a slim hull to another where the b/wl ratio is four times greater the wave making resistance will be a lot more than 4 times.

The monohull formulae is being touted here to be the limiting factor but slim hulls do not conform to this. There are many examples of boats both power and sail exceeding this by a large factor and they are most definitley in displacement mode. I have only seen one formulae applicable to cats but I think it is overly optomistic. For my boat @ 39' lwl and 12.5:1 b/wl it comes out at 19 knts. I found it on an electric boats group.
.68 x dwl^.5 x ((1.85 / (dwb/dwl)^.5)-1)

I feel that testosterone has taken over here. Catmando's original question as to where does the extra weight come from is a valid enquiry. Yes the lagoon has a higher payload and this is reflected in its max weight. yes it has wider hulls to carry this weight. yes it does have greater interior volume. I think the comparison between the far greater empty weights is at the root of his question. The greater volume will add some but there is an enourmous variation between light cats and heavy which doesn't seem to have an obvious answer.
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Old 17-01-2007, 21:11   #370
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Dave,

You stated that the Lagoon 420's sail area is 98m^(1054Sq.Ft.). This true if you don't order the genaker. I beleive the Fusion data that refers to sail area is worded to say the figure given represents the main sail plus the head sails (plural), so now when we add in the Lagoon genaker we have an apples to apples comparison. Now the sail area is Lagoon 420... 168m^
(1804Sq.Ft.) vrs. the Fusion's 157m^. My next post will compare boat to boat as we perpare for our make believe charters Abe and Ben and the families to go crusing in the BVI, one in a Fusion 40 and one in a Lagoon 420, the Martha R.

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Old 17-01-2007, 21:18   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420
Dave,

My next post will compare boat to boat as we perpare for our make believe charters Abe and Ben and the families to go crusing in the BVI, one in a Fusion 40 and one in a Lagoon 420, the Martha R.

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Whimsical got it in 1.

QR 420, look forward to the next installment.

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Old 17-01-2007, 23:36   #372
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Where's the extrta weight

Lets see if we can indeed find some reasons for the extrta weight in the 420's hull costruction and extra systems.
The first thing to add on would be the 1000 lbs. for the genset and AC wiring.
The second item would be the 2 motor battery banks plus double aut wiring conecting the 12 batteries together would add another 1880 lbs. A third item to add in is the 100 lbs. 1000W windlass that is standard on the 420.
My US version of the 420 will have a bigger fuel tank at 650L compared to 500L for the Fusion and will also carry extra weight in manatory holding tanks. Add 100 lbs. The mast on the 420 is 8 ft taller, so the mast/boom comb must be heavier, as well as bigger sails. add 200 lbs.

In the shape of the 420 bow you will notice a fiberglass protrusion that extends all the way forward to except the bow pulpit and anchor. This is all extra superstructure and not on the Fusion. This area is laid up extremely heavy as it has to be able to handle the extreme loads of both the front sails, the front stay, and the anchor rode loads. The bow pulpit alone goes way back into this protrusion for strength and probably weighs 50 lbs. all by itself. This protrusion also has to be very rigid because if replaces the front cross beam for strength between the hulls. Anyway ths whole unit could easily weigh 500 lbs. to 1000 lbs.

Now lets add on for the extra berth, the 2 extra showers,and the extra head with vanity and mirror, and the extra walls to incorporate them into the layout. this could be another 500 to 1000 lbs.

Now let get to the fuller hulls of the 420, we will use Dave's guess that they are about 1500 kilos heavier, meaning we can add another 3300 lbs. to our weight.

Lets see where we are at so far, and sub-total this up: 1000+1880+100+100+200+1000+1000+3300= 8580 lbs. heavier on the high end and 7580 lbs. on the low end. Thats 3900 to 3445 kilos heavier.

What if the wider hulls of the 420 need to be made a little thicker to achieve the desired stiffness. If the hull of the Lagoon was just a 1/16 " or about a millimeter thicker than the Fusion hull this would add another 1500 lbs.or another 700 kilos to our total, bring the difference to over 10,000 lbs on the high side.

You have been asking where the extra weight is, I hope the above discussions and totals get closer to an answer for you.

Abe and Ben's family BVI crusies might have to wait until tomorrow, as I am about typed out for one day.

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Old 18-01-2007, 00:41   #373
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The Lagoon 420 is also 13 inches wider than the Fusion, so weight will have to be added there because the Fusion is only 8 inches longer, and it takes a lot more material to add 13 inches on to the width of the boat, than it does to add 8 inches to a hulls length. So how much more does this add to our 10,000 lb total weight difference.
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Old 18-01-2007, 00:47   #374
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Fair enough ,

We can make up numbers forever here, like the Lagoon doesn't have a front beam 75kg, it has doesnt have 1 diesel, or the fuel and tanks for it 300kg, both would have an anchor winch 35kg,

I cant see how a coupla dunnys and showers add's up to 450kg or the pod in the guts add's up to another 450kg,

We still don't know what the furniture is made from, is it foam core like the Fusion, or is it particle board. Huge difference here.

And anyway, all this weight makes the boat better how?

You wear it like a badge of honour.

Lagoon may choose not to incorporate lighter construction techniques, cause previous sales data show's that there are still plenty of people who will buy a boat on name, not on it's number's, and basic rules [see post 319].

Like Nike shoe's and ipod's, not necesarilly better, but a flashy brand, and a percieved better thing.

But if you guy's are happy, which you obviously are , well good luck to you.

I'll stick to the ones that attempt to save weight , after all as a great Multihull guru once said, "save a pound a thousand times and you've saved a thousand pound's"

And from Bob Oram

Simply:

L e n g t h … is good!


And so is minimalism

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Old 18-01-2007, 05:09   #375
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Originally Posted by cat man do

L e n g t h … is good!


And so is minimalism
Cat man - this may be true for you. I'm assuming you are stating this as a personal statement of your preference rather than stating a fact that is meant to be true for all sailors.

To be clear - are you saying that a couple in their 60's happily sailing a 34' boat would be better off in a 54' boat? Are you saying that someone who chooses a boat beacause it satisfies their long term needs to be a stable, combfortable home should choose minimalism.

Your comments appear to continually ignore the repeated statements made on this thread that people buy boats for different reasons and that as a result, they have different preferences for boats.

Remember what thread you're in 'Lagoon 420 Owners and Fans'. What attracts people like myself, my wife and my family to this boat does not translate into length is better and minimalism. Why do you struggle to understand this and continue to battle against this?

This boat is going to be our home for very many years. We're going to have family and friends aboard for good chunks of time yet at other times, we'll be sailing with just the two of us.

Everything we've actually seen about this boat confirms our choice was right. This boat exceeds all our expectations in terms of living space and comfort. Expectations for performance remain within our needs (we don't want to race) and all we're doing is awaiting confirmation from actual experience.

I know I am repeating myself but I feel the need to do so to make sure readers (all 13,500 of them) realize that for some, this argument is utterly irrelevant. This is simply a great boat.
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