420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[Intentional Drifter]

I don't understand what seems to be a tendency for some to attach negative inferences on the characteristics that at least some others have for their boats. I don't think anyone would find posts from me that cast aspersions on racers or lightweight cruiser/racers. I can see where people might enjoy them, immensely and make such a boat their preferred choice. I, and others, make different choices. Our answer to the balancing of compromises we all have to make when it comes to selecting a boat just ends up different. Why does that have to result in derision?

ID

[Factor]

You going to correct your draft figures for the seawind?

[Intentional Drifter]

Factor -- As I indicated in the other thread, I didn't post those figures in the first place and therefore don't feel it is my responsibility to defend them, but for what it's worth, Seawinds says that it is 3'2" and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

ID

[cat man do]

I would like to make it clear that this weight debate should not just be aimed at Lagoon, and I feel I made it pretty clear in an earlier post

After looking at that Cruising World - Cats By The Numbers site it's obvious that is not just Lagoon that has a weight issue, so don't think for a second that i'm just singling Lagoons out.


I feel that a lot of these cat's are heavy, not just Lagoon. I also stated that as a charter cat in survey I can understand why they are heavier than a non survey vessel.

I realize that the lagoon has a lot more room in it than most cat's of similar length. Is this good, not at the cost of the extra weight stated in previous post's.IMHO

A lot of inferior and heavy material's can and have been used in production boat's in the interest of cost saving's for the builder.

Maybe the interior fitout on some of these heavier boat's are built from material's that one would find used in a house.EG: particle board/ chipboard carcase and exotic timber veneer for galley and furnishing's.

This is something I have heard of and seen myself [not in a lagoon as I have not been aboard one] and could well explain a lot of excess weight in a lot of the vessel's on the list.

I will agree that if these vessel's are purely a charter vessel, that they can and do fill a niche in the market,

But I cannot agree that they are the lightest, fastest, best boat ever made, like some of you seem to believe.

Some other opinions on weight VS performance.


from Bob Oram

Philosophy

Simply:

L e n g t h … is good!

And so is minimalism

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From the multihull source

Windward performance
Sadly for multihull fans, charter boats, which are the big majority of multihulls out there, sail very poorly to weather (see keels). Any J boat will smoke a Privilege or Lagoon upwind. However, well designed cruising boats with daggers, (Outremer, Catana, Grainger), etc will tack through 90-100 degrees, but will carry pretty good boat speed. Once you figure the VMG (vector made good), you would be right in there with a high performance monohull, but your sail would have been stable, flat, and that glass of wine you are drinking would still be upright on the table. Downwind and particularly on a reach, you will annihilate the J boat.

Weight
"I want TV's in every cabin, air conditioning, washer dryer, dishwasher, etc., etc. Will this slow me down?"

Yes! Multihulls are extremely weight sensitive. If you want to go fast, you need to keep it simple. If you want to bring everything and go fast, you need a big boat. However, catamarans in particular have huge storage capacity and most cruising cats are designed to carry a reasonable amount of stuff. Where the weight is carried in a boat is very important as well. It needs to be centered, keeping the bows and sterns as light as possible. Trimarans have limited load carrying capability
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From Kurt Hughes

No heavy multihulls allowed. Keeping the weight off of a multihull promotes safety as well as speed. Less weight means less damage when grounding; it means a smaller rig is needed; it means less stress on the whole structure. These boats are light compared to others of the same size, but never at the expense of strength and stiffness. Keeping weight down depends on careful detailing. Instead of using mass to resist loads, I use the right fibers in the right place.

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From 2 hulls

Light Displacement Benefits: Less weight and narrower hulls have to move less water so are faster; quicker acceleration and deceleration provides livelier ride; shallower draft; less energy to power up or stop, so can use smaller, lighter and less expensive sails, engine and other gear to achieve a given performance; less expensive to build unless using exotic construction methods/materials

Although cruising cats can be designed with a reasonable anticipated payload, each pound composes a higher percentage of a light vessel's weight, so performance is affected more. Weight and windage can eventually destroy any performance advantage that the multihull offers. As bulk increases, the higher center of gravity and sail plan detract from ultimate stability, which can be critical in a storm offshore.

Multihulls appear as ugly boxes to some sailors while others think they are as elegant as seabirds. One catamaran aficionado wisely directed his designer to draw up a boat with a typical 50-footer's accommodations, then make the boat 65 feet long. The result was elegant and not much more costly. . Many multihull designers note that it becomes exceedingly difficult to create an elegant cat with a luxurious accommodation and standing-headroom across the bridge deck in a vessel less than 40 feet long.

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From Schionning marine

5. Sailing Ability and Performance

Power to Weight Ratio

Power to weight ratios show how well a cat will sail in light conditions. As wind strength increases, one reefs the power to stay at safe acceptable speeds (this is different for different people). The Bruce Number is a commonly used value and very useful in comparing cats, displacement is not always reliable and will vary with load.

A Bruce Number =

1 is very slow, 1.3 to 1.4 is a good cruising value, 1.5 to 1.9 reflects a very fast cat. Boats like the French 60ft Tri's and Club Med are running to extremes like 2.3.

Sailing ability is important. I feel that good performance in a sailing cat is a real safety feature. A light and efficient cat can often sail out of trouble and out run severe weather patterns, shorten passage times and avoid bad weather by getting there in the existing weather window.

Most good designs will tack through 90 degrees at a speed of 8 - 10 knots while reaching at 10 - 13 knots comfortably with Main and No. 1 in 15 knots of wind. Daggerboards are efficient and allow very shallow draft for beaching. With a strong reinforced bottom as per our designs, it's easy to run the cats up on any old beach. Should you want shallow keels to protect inboard motors, then a combination of shallow keels and fixed rudders are a good option, daggerboards would still be fitted as usual, giving the best of both worlds.
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Dave

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Factor -- As I indicated in the other thread, I didn't post those figures in the first place and therefore don't feel it is my responsibility to defend them, but for what it's worth, Seawinds says that it is 3'2" and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

ID

Whoops sorry - you are correct - it was riot who posted seawind draught as 3'9" - as you and I agree it is .9 meter (or about 3'2")

[Quiet Riot 420]

Factor,

You should send you draft finding directly to Seawind, as that is where I got my figure for the American version of the 1160. Go to their site and see for yourself. Ask them to correct their mistake!

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot

[Quiet Riot 420]

Cat,

You say "But I cannot agree they are the lightest, fastest, and best boats ever made, like some of you seem to think"

When did any of our posts say the 420 was the "lightest"

When did any of our post say the 420 was the "fastest"

And really, when did anyone say this was the best boat ever!

What we did say was that this boat best met the design parameters that we were looking for in a charter cat, and at the moment is the only electric cat in production, other than a Solomon retro fit here and there.

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot 420

[planetoftheapes]

Catmando,

Now I see what you have been saying all along. The lagoon is heavier than your catamaran and lighter catamarans usually sail faster than heavy catamarans. Did you figure that out all by yourself?

Well thank you. Nobody on this board knew that before you told us. Thank God for geniuses like you to help steer us simple folk in the right direction.

Your other point is that dagger boards help pointing ability? Again, no one knew that either.

You didn’t happen to get a remote clue form ID’s post about passage speeds did you? Even light catamarans generally sail at no better than theoretical hull speed over a long passage. It’s just not comfortable or relaxing.

Something else you may have missed. With catamarans, you can have two of the following: comfort, speed or economy.

One must titrate these three components in a mix that suits your sailing/cruising objectives.

For the 100 plus L420 buyers that objective is:

1. Comfort and luxury for family and guests at a reasonable price.

2. Consistent 7-8 knots of boat speed in most conditions at a reasonable price.

3. A hybrid catamaran backed by a major manufacturer for a reasonable price.

It is clear that your purpose on this board is not to discuss but to discourage and frustrate potential 420 buyers.

Why don’t you discuss the headache, endless problems, cost overruns and lack of support one often experiences when trying to have a custom boat built. There’s no meaningful warranty and no quality control.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420

Cat,

You say "But I cannot agree they are the lightest, fastest, and best boats ever made, like some of you seem to think"

When did any of our posts say the 420 was the "lightest"

When did any of our post say the 420 was the "fastest"

And really, when did anyone say this was the best boat ever!

What we did say was that this boat best met the design parameters that we were looking for in a charter cat, and at the moment is the only electric cat in production, other than a Solomon retro fit here and there.

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot 420

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Let's be clear about things, the Lagoon L420 is the lightest, fastest most comfortable catamaran ever designed and she also has the greatest range under power not to mention absolute beauty.

Only a fool would sail any other cat.

End of story.


Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420

Cat,

What we did say was that this boat best met the design parameters that we were looking for in a charter cat, and at the moment is the only electric cat in production, other than a Solomon retro fit here and there.

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot 420

And I do believe that in the case of a charter vessel, I would pretty much agree as stated .

I will agree that if these vessel's are purely a charter vessel, that they can and do fill a niche in the market, posted by me

Dave

[cat man do]

[quote=planetoftheapes]Catmando,

Now I see what you have been saying all along. The lagoon is heavier than your catamaran and lighter catamarans usually sail faster than heavy catamarans. Did you figure that out all by yourself?

Infact the Lagoon is heavier than nearly every non survey multihull in that size and heavier than some in survey

You didn’t happen to get a remote clue form ID’s post about passage speeds did you? Even light catamarans generally sail at no better than theoretical hull speed over a long passage. It’s just not comfortable or relaxing.

I believe that SMM pointed out that infact the performance cat's finished day's in front of the Lagoon.

Something else you may have missed. With catamarans, you can have two of the following: comfort, speed or economy.

One must titrate these three components in a mix that suits your sailing/cruising objectives.

For the 100 plus L420 buyers that objective is:

1. Comfort and luxury for family and guests at a reasonable price.

2. Consistent 7-8 knots of boat speed in most conditions at a reasonable price.

3. A hybrid catamaran backed by a major manufacturer for a reasonable price.


Why do you think you can have all three ?

It is clear that your purpose on this board is not to discuss but to discourage and frustrate potential 420 buyers.

It seem's that you are frustrated enough, you dont need my help.

Why don’t you discuss the headache, endless problems, cost overruns and lack of support one often experiences when trying to have a custom boat built. There’s no meaningful warranty and no quality control.

It would appear that you are the custom build expert, start a thread and i'm sure a lot of us will join in


Dave

[planetoftheapes]

Let's be clear about things, the Lagoon L420 is the lightest, fastest most comfortable catamaran ever designed and she also has the greatest range under power not to mention absolute beauty.

Only a fool would sail any other cat.

End of story.

Yes, this is God's truth, only a fool would sail any other cat.

Oh, and I just read a report about the Lagoon 420 Planet of the Apes which blew past a Gunboat 66 going 35 knots in only 5 knots true. Then she became the first sailboat of any type to sail three times wind speed while pointing.

The owners of Planet of the Apes were then able to tow their catamaran home behind their compact car, due to its extreme light weight, after powering 5000 miles with no fuel stops to there home base.

[cat man do]

Here come the men with the white suit's and the butterfly net.

Dave

[planetoftheapes]

For the 100 plus L420 buyers that objective is:

1. Comfort and luxury for family and guests at a reasonable price.

2. Consistent 7-8 knots of boat speed in most conditions at a reasonable price.

3. A hybrid catamaran backed by a major manufacturer for a reasonable price.


Why do you think you can have all three ?

Yes, you and I finally agree. The Lagoon 420 is the best compromise between speed, comfort and economy available in the market, not to mention the advantages of the hybrid system.

Yes, you are right, with the Lagoon 420 you really do get all three.

I knew you would eventually see the light. Welcome to the Lagoon family.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420

Factor,

You should send you draft finding directly to Seawind, as that is where I got my figure for the American version of the 1160. Go to their site and see for yourself. Ask them to correct their mistake!

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot

I just looked up seawindcats.com, It says .9 of a metre or 3ft 2'ish in old language. I cant find any published data that says over a metre.

http://www.seawindcats.com/index.pl?page=131 is the link to the page it says .9 metre

And I will call Brent Vaughan at seawind tomorrow to see if somehow the US version sinks 6 inches.