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Old 14-01-2007, 20:55   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northerncat
from what i can see in australia for 42 ft cats around 8000 kilos seems reasonablefor weight , as someone currently in the construction of a catamaran i would be interested to know whether the extra 3000k odd in the lagoon is batteries, maybe things are just lighter in the southeren hemisphere ??
sean
sean,

Which of these 42' Austraiian cats you mentioned has 4 Queen sized island beds, 4 heads and 4 separate showers, and don't forget to add weight to your cats for a huge genset(21.5Kw)and a hard bimini top that come standard on the 420.(not to mention the 2740 Ah of non-poluting batteries for fuel) Let compare apples to apples.

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Old 14-01-2007, 22:42   #302
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Confusion

"To the rest that can't or won't at least acnowledge that the Lagoon 42 appears to be very heavy for it's length, Have fun."


surface area formula for a sphere is 4*pi*r^2

The surface area inceases as the square of the radius. It does not take much increase in volume to significantly increase suface area and weight.

I am still unsure of your objective Catmando.

We all admit the published weight for the L420 is high.

We consider it possible Lagoon is using a different standard of measurement.

We give you reasons why the weight may be high: the L420 is a VERY BIG 42 FOOT CATAMARAN WITH TREMENDOUS ACCOMODATIONS AND HUGE BATTERY BANKS.

We describe why this may still result in a highly functional product based on the design philosophy Lagoon applies.

We know Lagoon has built a thousand highly functional catamarans.

We know their designers are excellent and innovative.

There is no reason or indication that this cat will not or has not meet past Lagoon performance standards.

So, your point all along was the L420 seems heavy. Well gee sparky, thanks for the 411 and remember from now on to use your respirator.
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Old 14-01-2007, 22:47   #303
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Hi QR 420,

The answer to you question is none,

But how often do you need 4 Queen size bed's?
How often will you have 8 adult's on board to use them?
How often do they all $hit and shower at the same time?

also take into account that all those batteries and 1 diesel geni may infact weigh less than a twin diesel installation with the extra fuel.

Hard Bimini's , yeah, we have 'em as well.

These may not be 42, but they are close.

http://www.seawindcats.com/index.pl?page=131

The middle image is 4 cabin.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Fusion Catamarans International

This one is 4 cabin as well
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Schionning Designs -

Have a look at the cosmos 1250, built to survey with 4 cabins and two shower's/head areas

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Grainger Designs Multihull and Yacht Design

Chincogan 40 4 cabin 3 shower/head [if you really need it]


So there's a few for you.

Note the displacement, light and loaded.

Hope this help's

Dave
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Old 15-01-2007, 00:09   #304
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Catmando,

Sorry Cat but none of these cats even comes close to the 420 in terms of overall interior volumn. Do you really enjoy climbing over your partner to get in & out of bed, like every berth in the Chincogan. The Fusion cats, and Schionning don't even show you any pictures of their berths. And yes, as a charter boat, my 420 will ofter have 6 to 8 guest on board.

Also, look at the stern of all the the yachts you mentioned and then look at the 420. You will notice the the 420 is much wider and much more squared off at the water line than any of the others. This was done on porpose to accommodate the extra weight, and keep the draft too a very reasonable 4'2".

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Old 15-01-2007, 01:35   #305
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I don't see a solution to this question comming to light at all. The 420 is a large volume boat but while volume alone has no weight there will be a small incremental increase.

I think the answer will lie in a multitude of small incremental increases for eg How much does the gel coat weigh. It could be an ultra thin coat or a layer of paint in the light weights or a heavy layer to stand up to the riggors of chartering. Wouldnt be hard to see a difference of 400kg going by some of the gel coats I have seen. Same with the timber soles, chartering would demand something durable whereas I will be looking for light weight first and foremost, maybe a very thin cork. Same for galley tops. 4 heads and plumbing, are they lightweight or nice heavy ceramic things similar to land based, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
I have beeen trying to find a lightweight gen set for a possible electric install, 12 kW ones seem to be about the weight of 1.5 20 hp diesels. 20 kW + the huge batts +motors etc it is going to be substantially over a 2 X 30 hp instalation.
What survey code did they follow? how much extra weight would the lightweights carry if they conformed to the same code, not all the difference but some of it.

I think the Lagoon is targeted at charter and those who desire a high level of fitout where weight is a secondary issue. The lagoon does seem to be pretty opulent, this must add weight but how much? Impossible to say without a very detailed survey.

As long as these people are happy who cares, not for me so I will do something different. This also applies to the draft, I would not be happy with "a very reasonable 4'2".


I think I must be a lagoon, my weight has seen a steady increase as well.
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Old 15-01-2007, 06:05   #306
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Not wanting to get involved too much in this somewhat heated debate about weight I recently discussed with Lagoon what the weight would be of a 440 but with electric drives. This was based on the difference between a 440 with two 55hp diesels fitted with the large genset compared with two electric motors and the same genset. The difference would be the electric version would weigh 400kg heavier. This means the total weight of batteries onboard is around the 800kg mark.
They are not far away from offering a lithium battery option which would reduce the weight of any of their electric drive boats by 600kg but there is a rather large premium, the lithium batteries are 8 times the cost of standard ones.
The reason I asked about the 440 and not 420 is personal preference only to do with the layout etc.
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Old 15-01-2007, 06:28   #307
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A picture of the Schionning cosmos 1250. taken from the Schionning website link above.

When I emailed the lagoon rep about a non-survey version he said they do not make one. When I asked about a lightweight version his reply was lagoon don't have those either.



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Old 15-01-2007, 06:45   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420
,

, and keep the draft too a very reasonable 4'2".

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4 foot 2 inches - I 've sailed monos with less draft than that, any multi with a draft over a metre is kidding. (unless using boards - which of course can be retracted).

This whole debate is really very tiring, Look - you buy what you want, if you want a lagoon, then good on you, but dont tell me they are a quick boat, the physics tell me they simply cant be, they weigh too much, they have too much wetted area, hulls are too fat, the sails are way to far above the water. But plenty of people are sailing them and having fun.
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Old 15-01-2007, 07:45   #309
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Weight

My point with the surface area formula is that it is very easy to add a large quantity of surface area to a hull just by increasing interior volume by a small amount.

A radius of 1 will give a proportional surface area of 1

A radius of 2 will give a proportional surface area of 4

That is a 400 % in increase in surface area.

Now if you increase the radius of the interior volume of a hull by 20% you have increase surface area by 40%.

This is real hull and deck structure, made of glass, resin and core. This is why boat displacement increases dramatically with length.

All this says is a big boat with a big interior will take a lot of material to make.

From this perspective, a 42 footer with the same interior volume as a 48 footer will weigh about the same.

You will find the interior of the L420 is about the same as the interior size of the L440 or Leopard 46 and they all weight about the same minus the L420 battery banks.
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Old 15-01-2007, 11:15   #310
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When I looked at the weight and passage times of other cats (in the thread on Cats, Weight, Performance and Value), this gave me some data with which I could then compare the 420.

Using the published numbers (yeah, I know the limits, but that is what we have, so that is what we can use), the 420 is not all that far outside the norm. In fact, in comparison to the sample of 57 cats in the ARC years, is at the high end of "average" in terms of pounds carried per foot of waterline length. When looking at the passage times of boats having a similar or greater weight (using that variable), we see the following boats:

Privilege 585
Lagoon 500
Catana 582
Catana 522
Lagoon 570

These boats had an average crossing time of 17986 minutes over the '04 - '06 ARC's. This was not significantly different from either lighter boats, or boats with less length at the waterline.

So, in these kinds of cruising conditions, I have no reason to expect that the 420 will perform any differently than the average.

What the ARC data also tell us is that few boats ever exceed hull speed for a very great period of time. Out of the over 200 boats, relatively few (my eyeballing the data looks like about 15%, not including the custom monsters that do 400+ days) had any 200+ days. So, even in this year's event, lauded by many as some of the best sailing they ever had, the majority of boats did not average over 8 knts.

Comparing the multihulls to the rest of the fleet is yet another interesting comparison. Leaving out the specialized racing boats, the multihulls as a class are quite a bit faster than the cruising monohulls, regardless of class.

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Old 15-01-2007, 11:52   #311
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I also did some research on the drafts for various crusing cats, of which 5 of the following are listed in the Jan. issue of "Crusing World":

Broadblue 385......................3'5" Light Disp.........15,867#'s

Seawind 1160 (38')...............3'9" .........15,4003#'s

Nautitech 47........................3'11" ..........24,400#'s

Lagoon 420..........................4'2" ...........25,842#'s

Privilege 435.........................4'3" ........... ???

Moorings 4600......................4'5" ...........24,206#'s

So you can see Factor, that the Lagoon 420 draft of 4'2" is right in the middle of the range for 21st century cats, and they are all over your 1m limit. Must be newer generation crusing cats all draw more than the 1990's predecessors.

You can also see that the 420 is not that much heavier than the other 4 cabin, 4 head cats.

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Old 15-01-2007, 12:39   #312
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I finally found some displacement data on the Privilege 435. Seems it weighs
24,000#'s "dry". Again, right in line with with the other newer plus 40' cats.
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Old 15-01-2007, 13:02   #313
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Might also add to this the Broadblue 435: Displacement (not specified how measured), 20061 lbs; draft, 4 ft., 1 in.; lwl, 37 ft, 4 in.

Again, another example of how the 420 is not outside of the norm.

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Old 15-01-2007, 14:38   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot 420
I
Seawind 1160 (38')...............3'9" .........15,4003#'s


You can also see that the 420 is not that much heavier than the other 4 cabin, 4 head cats.

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I can guarantee the seawind doesnt draw 3'9" - Its less than a metre loaded. - And before we get into a debate - I have actually measured it, personally, with my own eyes and hands.
AS for 4 cabin 4 head - why? My house doesnt have that many bedrooms or bathrooms. I note your boat is going into charter, thats fair enough then I suppose.

I think you miss the point, buy what you like but dont pretend that the Lagoon is a rocket ship, I've sailed them - they are nice boats and very liveable, though I personally dont go for the up galley, but thats just me. They do not perform as well as say the Foutaine PAjot in a similar size, and not as well as the australian production boats.

In fact I have sailed most production cats, most are simply not the performers that a well built custom design is (and by performance I mean all round performance not just speed).
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Old 15-01-2007, 14:40   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter
Might also add to this the Broadblue 435: Displacement (not specified how measured), 20061 lbs; draft, 4 ft., 1 in.; lwl, 37 ft, 4 in.

Again, another example of how the 420 is not outside of the norm.

ID
Dont think anyone was suggesting the lagoon is out of the norm, for bloated charter boats, that is.
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