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Old 12-01-2007, 20:35   #286
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Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Let's be clear about things, the Lagoon L420 is the lightest, fastest most comfortable catamaran ever designed and she also has the greatest range under power not to mention absolute beauty.

Only a fool would sail any other cat.

End of story.
Yeah mate, right you are,[not]

I won't bother commenting on that post.



ess105, I am not weight obsessed, I am just more than interested ,as any diligent multihuller, boatbuilder would be, to find out where the weight is.

If I was weight obsessed, I would be building in Nomex Honeycomb and Pre-preg carbon /epoxy composite and cutting my tooth brushes in half.

As pointed out by myself and others the Lagoon is more than twice as heavy as other cats of the same size.

Even Lagoon representitives have no answer, and at best can only read back verbatim sections from the lagoon site telling everyone how wonderfull they are.

A totally unbiased opinion [not]

The Chincogan 52 on my first link is a long way from being a lightweight flier, and the 194448 lb displacement to the waterline is a fact.

I have sailed beside these things in my last cat doing 12 to 15 knot's in about 25 knot's of wind and they have sailed past me effortlessly doing 20+ knots.

When going aboard later that evening, the boat was floating above her lines indicating that a bit more gear could go on board before reaching her DWL displacement of 19448 kg.

Her level of fitout while probably not as opulant as the lagoon , was very tastfull and her inventory has the usual watermaker's 200litre fridges large LCD screen , more electronic's than the space shuttle, plenty of anchors and associated gear including winches, genset and the batteries to run it all.

Her construction is not exotic and is infact the same technique supposedly used by lagoon.

This one here will give you an indication of the level of fitout and the inventory.

The Yacht Hub - new & used boats sale

Please, fill us in as to what extras the lagoon may have that would add up to more than double the weight. Even granite benchtop's won't add the kilos we're taking about, and the one I looked at did infact have corian bench top's which are bloody heavy.

The one I went aboard also had more timber in her than this one, but that would hardly add much to the weight.

The Lagoon fanatic's keep pointing out how well their boat's sail, that there is nothing faster, that they weigh no more than any other cat of a similar size yet when asked to back it up, the best they can do is say that everyone else is lying and produce snippet's of information supplied by lagoon, and there own private club that appears to feeding it's members mis-information,

I believe the published numbers speak for themselves, and if the lagoon owners are happy , well good luck to them.

My comment's are in no way meant as a rubbishing of Lagoon's, but they are certainly meant to show that they are not the lightest, fastest, most comfortable catamaran ever sailed, with the greatest range etc etc

As a diligent and interested mutihuller, I repeat my question on why are they near double the weight of similar sized catamaran's.

Ask lagoon for hard fact's . As members of the club you have better access to the inner sanctum than I, and as owners I would have thought you would have taken more interest instead of just sticking your head's in the sand.

Dave
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Old 12-01-2007, 21:52   #287
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[quote=cat man do]"Yeah mate, right you are,[yes!]

I won't bother commenting on that post.

The Chincogan 52 on my first link is a long way from being a lightweight flier, and the 194448 lb displacement to the waterline is a fact."


Let's see a million dollar boat versus my beautiful L420 at 370K. Are you for real???

Why not the GunBoat 66. I hear these cats are light? They only cost $3 million so why is the L420 so heavy compared to the gunboat?

I have the real answer to the weight question.

This answer requires three-dimensional thinking.

The L420 is really a 50ft catamaran with the hulls shortened to 42 feet. She has a 25ft beam with enormous overall volume. Add a few thousand pounds of extra weight for additional equipment and you have your answer.

The L420 is a huge 42 ft catamaran with big battery banks.

It is not reasonable to compare the weight of a boat that has the volume of a 50 footer with other 42 foot boats that do not.

Empty displacement24692 lbs Loaded displacement (EEC)31813 lbs

How many 50ft cruising cats cost 400K, weigh 24692 lbs, sail well and are a marvelous, elegant, floating home?

What and unbelievable bargain!

I feel sorry for those tricked into paying more for a lesser catamaran.
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Old 12-01-2007, 22:45   #288
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http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/5/...?1161068400000Click on image to enlarge Hmmm, look's to be about the same dollars as a Chincogan 50 to me.


15m Lagoon 500 "Charme"
  • Year: 2006
  • Current Price: US$ 899,999
    (A$ 1,152,072)
  • Located In St. Thomas, Virgin Islands (US)
  • Hull Material: Fibreglass/GRP
  • Engine/Fuel Type: Twin Diesel
  • YW# 2065-1502872
heaps more on this site. Lagoon Boats For Sale

And you comment's of your lagoon only costing $370k, well sound's like it is'nt holding it's value very well.

What does that tell you.

I don't understand your obsession with the batteries, all boat's have them, the chincogan I showed is a long disance liveaboard cruiser, obviously with sufficient for the job.

Does Lagoon give you more?

How many 50ft cruising cats cost 400K, weigh 24692 lbs, sail well and are a marvelous, elegant, floating home? by POTA

Answer none.

Go to any multi designer of note and ask the question, " I want you to design me a 50 ft catamaran with a loaded displacement of 31813 lbs and then make it ten foot shorter" and see what he says.

When he's stopped laughing his gut's out he'd probably show you something like the pic below before showing you to the door.





Most people would ask a similar question and say "make it ten foot longer"


It's obvious that you have no concept on basic multihull design or the characteristic's that make them the fine craft that they are.

Caravaning is not one of them

Please don't apply for a job as spokesperson for lagoon, you are doing them no favour's at the moment.

Dave
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Old 12-01-2007, 23:09   #289
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If I was weight obsessed, I would be building in Nomex Honeycomb and Pre-preg carbon /epoxy composite and cutting my tooth brushes in half.

you forgot to mention throwing out the kitchenm and importing a cruide worth of mars bars

The L420 is really a 50ft catamaran with the hulls shortened to 42 feet.

as for this one if you shorten boat hulls down to 42 ft you have a fat slow hull which i cant for a minute believe, hte only way to get the accomodation of a 50footer is to get a fifty footer or buy a multihaven ,
you cant just shorten a hull
sean
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Old 12-01-2007, 23:21   #290
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Yep NC, I think there must be a promotional DVD that comes with the lagoon info pack that has some of that swirly line brainwashing stuff on it.

Dave
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Old 13-01-2007, 04:04   #291
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Originally Posted by cat man do
Yeah mate, right you are,[not]

I won't bother commenting on that post.

.....

My comment's are in no way meant as a rubbishing of Lagoon's, but they are certainly meant to show that they are not the lightest, fastest, most comfortable catamaran ever sailed, with the greatest range etc etc
You U-Turn in the space of one message and wonder why I comment on you being obsessed? Speaks for itself.

As for the repeated comment

Quote:
as any diligent multihuller, boatbuilder would be
You know you are insulting everyone who doesn't look at the world the way you do. I welcome that you are free to express your thoughts but when you are being rude all you are doing is showing us your character which in turn lowers the value of anything and everything you have to say.

I will restate again my viewpoint. I care about how good the L420 is to live in (5 stars by all accounts) and to a lesser extent how well she performs. Based on my needs, I'm not looking for a racer. All the information I have received so far indicates the boat sails well, including in adverse conditions.

However, I will only know the answer for real once the boat gets out there and we get independant comments from different people from whom we can judge have unbiased perspectives. I am quite prepared to be patient. I don't have to answer direct questions from you no matter how rude or insulting you get.

If you want to pursue this question further. Why don't you start a new thread specifically aimed at discussing the weights of Lagoons and enjoy a healthy discussion with all those that join you there.
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Old 13-01-2007, 07:42   #292
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Cat design lesson

Please don't apply for a job as spokesperson for lagoon, you are doing them no favour's at the moment.

Dave[/quote]

Your replies are quite unusual and interesting.

I hope all is well at home.

Are you of the opinion that the L420 is not a very high volume 42 ft catamaran and that high volume will have a weight penalty?

Are you of the opinion an electric catamaran will not gain additional weight from large battery banks?

Now let me explain the Lagoon design philosophy to you. Lagoon believes most catamaran cruisers donít like to push their boats past hull speed on a leisurely cruise. This is the absolute truth found in a study on passage times and DWL. Lagoon designs cats that consistently sail to hull speed. They don't design cats that easily break through the hull speed barrier.

If the boat is designed form the beginning with this objective it opens many possibilities:

1. Sailing at or below hull speed is a low energy proposition.

2. Sailing at or below hull speed means you can step away from the long, light and narrow mantra you seem to be obsessed with.

3. You can design hulls with a wider beam, higher weight carrying capacity like a performance mono-hulls.

4. Why is this the case? Because the energy require to push a boat past hull speed climbs exponentially. Lagoon says, hey we just wonít go there and we can build a good sailing high volume cat at low cost.

So the Lagoon and Sunreef catamaran have a different design philosophy which is actually much more appropriate for a cruiser. Better load carrying, less pitching, less slamming, better is heavy weather but yes the Lagoon 420 canít cruise at 15knots.
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Old 13-01-2007, 12:06   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ess105
I will restate again my viewpoint. I care about how good the L420 is to live in (5 stars by all accounts) and to a lesser extent how well she performs. Based on my needs, I'm not looking for a racer. All the information I have received so far indicates the boat sails well, including in adverse conditions.
...I agree with the critical boatbuilder Catmando: the Lagoon society seems to pat eachother on the back, where as NO ONE has sailed the 420!
Or please tell the forum about it. Or has anyone chartered one? Any delivery skippers present who brought it across the pond?
Live aboard space and functionality during a boatshow might be very different when you are in a 6' -8' head sea, potentially underpowered with a rather heavy cruising cat that is not very aerodynamic.
A few 'tests' in magazines (in which Lagoon buys plenty of advertizing...), a few promotional DVD's , and there is a hype.

When it comes to building catamarans, Africat just launched a 43' in Durban, and it weighted in a 13,000 Lbs. Epoxy boat, and they tried to save weight everywhere. Insterstingly, they fit Salomon engines.

I am looking for a 42- 50' catamaran, I know from experience that weight is a big factor in sailing performance, and I would just like to get REAL stories from real people who really sailed the 420. Not the sales crap from the dealers / builders.
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Old 13-01-2007, 14:42   #294
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Cat Man Do,
Thanks for your input on lightning. I have called my sales rep for Lagoon and asked him to get a question to the factory regarding lightning arresters. Yes they are expensive but based upon your experience having more and more electrics on board is worrying. I would hate to have one good strike knock out everything including the electric motors and battery bank on a 420. Sailing a boat this size around a tight harbor without engine power wouldn't be fun either.
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Old 13-01-2007, 14:54   #295
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Cat_Man_Do,

Thanks for keeping this weight issue alive, since I dreged it back up so many posts back. Maybe we should push it out of the 420 thread, as it does not seem we are getting anywhere towards resolving this. In fact, I will post something now.
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Old 13-01-2007, 16:00   #296
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I am looking for a 42- 50' catamaran, I know from experience that weight is a big factor in sailing performance, and I would just like to get REAL stories from real people who really sailed the 420. Not the sales crap from the dealers / builders.
Frank - when you get to the end of what you have to say, this sounds far more like my message. Cat Man Do want's us to ask Lagoon where the weight comes from. But both you and he don't trust what the manufacturers say. I stated myself that I'm waiting for unbiaised oppinion. With the post-prototype boats finally coming off the assembly line, we shouldn't have to wait (sic) much longer.

We're all interested but I fail to see the sense in chasing sources of information that are panned (because of where they come from) the moment they are published. Cat Man Do has done a very effective job of stifling and preventing any comment (at least from me) on any source of information we have access to.

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Old 13-01-2007, 21:14   #297
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from what i can see in australia for 42 ft cats around 8000 kilos seems reasonablefor weight , as someone currently in the construction of a catamaran i would be interested to know whether the extra 3000k odd in the lagoon is batteries, maybe things are just lighter in the southeren hemisphere ??
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Old 13-01-2007, 21:15   #298
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i do think however it will be interesting to see how the electric motors work out, im a bit sceptical but they would be funky
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Old 14-01-2007, 03:19   #299
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I donít think you could do any better than Ewen Thomson regarding Lightning Protection. Iíll be very interested to learn what comes of your consultation.

FWIW, you might be interested in:
SELECTING LIGHTNING ARRESTORS for SHORE POWER
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Old 14-01-2007, 19:12   #300
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To the guys with the positive comment's , Thanks

To the rest that can't or won't at least acnowledge that the Lagoon 42 appears to be very heavy for it's length, Have fun.

My point's above on weight still stand and are not only believed by me but also most other owners ,designers and builders of multihull's in the world today.

At the end of the day, we will all be out there enjoying our various craft.

Enjoy

Dave
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