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Old 10-01-2007, 05:55   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
Bloody hell , some of these thing's must have lead in their keel's

Dave
Now that's funny Cat Man Do.

I'm sure the 420 will be a lovely boat that is easy to live on but may not be the quickest cat on the water.
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Old 10-01-2007, 06:44   #257
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Steve:
While You, other buyers, and the Lagoon Engineering & Production people may not view yourselves & new owners as potential complainants,
most assuredly,
the Lagoon Lawyers do.
They cannot help themselves - it's what they do, & who they are.
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Old 10-01-2007, 07:28   #258
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Originally Posted by ess105
I also think it is a personal statement when you say that any boat has a weight issue. We all have different requirements for our boats which means one mans issue is anothers benefit.


Steve
I think you will find that any serious multihuller that has done a bit of research would realise that weight of a multihull directly reflects on safety and performance.

Sure we can all put a bit too much stuff onboard at times, god know's I have, and some of us build a touch heavier than maybe we should, done that as well.

This equates to a few hundred kilos, gee, let's say a thousand kilos or even two thousand kilo's to be really silly,

But 6700kg heavier, that's just not right.

So tell us Steve, what are the benifit's of all this extra weight ?

Dave
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:11   #259
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Originally Posted by cat man do
But 6700kg heavier, that's just not right.
That question can't be understood until we really know where the "weight difference" is coming from. All you are comparing is numbers on paper. The difference will be sum of the effect of the change in measurement, hull weight as a result of design / build, propulsion units and whatever else. I'll be honest, I haven't the first clue as to how much each contributes and I'll be also be honest, I don't care as much as you seem to. Nor am I remotely qualified to answer that question even if someone on this board could work this out properly.

All I am is someone who took a punt on a concept expressed as a bunch of pdfs back in 2005. My decision. My risk. My loss if it turns out bad. My gain if this ends up in my favour. With all the noise in this space (as evidenced on this and other forums) answering these questions ahead of actual tests and real owner experience is meaningless to me. It's just all speculation.

The bet I made in 2005 still stands. Whether it's a winning one or not will not be determined here - it's out on the water. What I've seen of the boat so far has exceeded my expectations. There are still unknowns but I'm prepared to live with that.

Steve
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:14   #260
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Originally Posted by GordMay
Steve:
While You, other buyers, and the Lagoon Engineering & Production people may not view yourselves & new owners as potential complainants,
most assuredly,
the Lagoon Lawyers do.
They cannot help themselves - it's what they do, & who they are.
I am so delighted for them.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:59   #261
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Originally Posted by ess105
That question can't be understood until we really know where the "weight difference" is coming from. All you are comparing is numbers on paper. The difference will be sum of the effect of the change in measurement, hull weight as a result of design / build, propulsion units and whatever else. I'll be honest, I haven't the first clue as to how much each contributes and I'll be also be honest, I don't care as much as you seem to. Nor am I remotely qualified to answer that question even if someone on this board could work this out properly.

All I am is someone who took a punt on a concept expressed as a bunch of pdfs back in 2005. My decision. My risk. My loss if it turns out bad. My gain if this ends up in my favour. With all the noise in this space (as evidenced on this and other forums) answering these questions ahead of actual tests and real owner experience is meaningless to me. It's just all speculation.

The bet I made in 2005 still stands. Whether it's a winning one or not will not be determined here - it's out on the water. What I've seen of the boat so far has exceeded my expectations. There are still unknowns but I'm prepared to live with that.

Steve
Steve, it does not matter what others say or think. Buying the 420 is your decision. It looks like it will be a great boat to cruise and with a large company like Lagoon behind it the service/support should be excellent. I would not worry that Lagoon is taking their time working out the bugs.

I have also said that real life sailing will indincate how the boat will perform. My guess, it will sail like a 40 foot mono. Most cruising cats sail like a similar sized cruising monos. SA/D is what it is.

I think many multi hull companies are less then honest when selling the speed potential of their boats. They try to sell the fact that the boat in boat show trim (ie empty) has a high powered SA/D without letting people know that the reality of adding cruising gear.

When you have a light boat loaded with cruising gear the SA/D dives big time. Our mono has a SA/D of 22 but weighs 65k. So when cruising gear is added (5k to 10k lbs) our SA/D goes down but not dramaticly. If you take say a Conser 44 that weighs 10k total and has a SA/D 34 the weight needed for cruising gear will change the SA/D to what? 25? 20? Gone is the speed.

We all need to remember that sailing, by its nature, is a slow way to get places. But getting places is part of the adventure, pace does not really matter. 150 miles per day, 175 miles per day. Who cares?
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:35   #262
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Certainly weight is one of many important variables in a complex, multivariate equation that results in a rather nebulously defined term -- "performance". Nebulous because my definition of performance may be very different from yours. If my goal is to put down 400 nm days, then my boat is going to look very different from someone whose definition is comfortable living for four to six while casually getting from place to place.

When even the single variable of weight is futher complicated by a lack of standardization in how that measure was achieved -- well, it then becomes practically useless. Because of this problem, for all we know, the 420 may actually be no heavier than any of the other boats in the same class.

What we do know, though, is that in real life situations, boats designed by the same team, with very similar hull characteristics (and, also criticized for being overly heavy, I might add), departing at the same time from the same place, in the same conditions, seem to do pretty darn well, and are certainly competitive with both longer, lighter, and more "performance" oriented, multihulls as well as monohulls. (source: ARC results, 2004 thru 2006) Of course, I have no doubt that there were many other variables independent from the boat that also contributed to these results (skill of captain and crew, route selected, weather encountered, etc.), but when you look at three years worth of results, those sorts of variables tend to wash out.

Now, if I can be both similar in crossing times and have more comfort and convenience while doing so, and also at a price I can afford, that sounds like a great deal to me. "Tastes great and less filling!"

ID
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:44   #263
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Well said Joli & ID
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Old 10-01-2007, 14:34   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ess105
Well said Joli & ID
From guy's who [no disrespect] don't appear to have multihull's.


As I've said a few time's, in no way am I singling the Lagoon or your choice of boat out.

I'ts just that with 262 post's there are a few owners on this site.

As a boatbuilder, I am interested as to where the weight goes on production vs custom build's.

Maybe some of the other owners have an idea where the extra weight is.

Maybe a question lagoon owners could as of lagoon.?


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Old 10-01-2007, 16:07   #265
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i just think that like the australian "multihaven" they look a bit ugly, form should not follow function in the case of the upright windows
sean
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Old 10-01-2007, 16:14   #266
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my 38 ft cat 4 ft smaller will weigh in at 4000 kilos this makes the lagoon a whopping 31/2 times heavier
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Old 10-01-2007, 16:22   #267
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Ugly Multihulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by northerncat
i just think that like the australian "multihaven" they look a bit ugly, form should not follow function in the case of the upright windows
sean
Some people think all multihulls are ugly and I'd agree with them to a point.

When it comes to windows on the multihull I think form DOES follow function. It took me a while to work my mind around upright windows, now I think it is those slopey cats that are ugly. I look at them and visualise their overheating saloon with their restricted visibility. I see shuttered windows and think now that's what I call ugly.

Chris
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Old 10-01-2007, 16:23   #268
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Quote:
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i just think that like the australian "multihaven" they look a bit ugly, form should not follow function in the case of the upright windows
sean
But Sean, they look so nice,





Is this the front, or the back?



And for the powercat guy's



I'd suggest that they pinched a few ideas, or infact may have a set of early hull mould's for a Prout, and then modified.

I'd also say I find the look's of the lagoon quite attractive, where as this.............

Dave
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Old 10-01-2007, 16:32   #269
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I must agree with you Chris, I like what the more upright window's do, most sloped ones always have shadecloth covering them to keep the heat out, and as stated previously I originally had a more trawler theme going on my cabin for the exact reasons you state.

But that Green water over the top pack's a punch, so went a bit more slippery in style.

As another 420 owner, have you any comment's as to where the extra weight is in your boat?

Or if you feel that your boat would benifit from being lighter in some way?

Dave
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Old 10-01-2007, 16:53   #270
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Oh, come on now, people, equating the Multihaven monstrosity with a Lagoon, any Lagoon, is hitting below the belt!

Be nice, please, Sean and Dave, or when we run into each other, where ever that may be, I won't share my Bodacious sacred cow Bar BQ!

That Multihaven looks like it was drawn by some late '60's era Japanese car designer on LSD.

ID
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