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Old 05-06-2011, 15:20   #16
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[QUOTE="Aluna"]We were on the brink of buying a 440 because of the flybridge and now I am glad we didn't. The flybridge is great if there is a lot of people to sail the boat. If you are only two then one has to sit up there all alone and when it rains and it is cold it is no fun being exposed. Lagoons are largely sold as charter boats - big (lots of windage) spacious (lots of paying guests) and HEAVY.

With a cat the more you pay the less you get - that is weight. You pay for carbon fibres and they cost but they keep the weight down which is what counts on a cat. The lighter the better.

We chose the Orana 44. It is in fact a similar size to the 440 but much lighter and a hell of of a lot easier to sail. They are not more expensive. From the years of researching they are also the best value for money than any other cat (new) currently on the market.


I couldn't disagree with you more.

We sail the Lagoon 440 as a husband wife team and my lady is petite.... And we sail in rough waters, have weathered storms and ask anyone who knows where we dock her ...... A very difficult berth by all standards, and the two of us put her right in there even in heavy crosswinds.

We spend a lot of time on the flybridge (Man - just absolutely fantastic) together and when it is cold we spend it in the cabin together - steering either by auto pilot or remote helm station indoors - works like a charm.

Bare charted many boats before this one, sold the catana 471 and find the lagoon 440 is a fantastic all round home with very good speed. We have the owners version (3 cabin) and move onboard full time.

Everytime without fail, other cat owners who come aboard are blown away with the space and views if the 440..... Heavy ..... We never think of it as heavy because she sails fast and comfortably.

I may not like the support I get from Lagoon (which is zero) but I love their product.
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:24   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluna
We were on the brink of buying a 440 because of the flybridge and now I am glad we didn't. The flybridge is great if there is a lot of people to sail the boat. If you are only two then one has to sit up there all alone and when it rains and it is cold it is no fun being exposed. Lagoons are largely sold as charter boats - big (lots of windage) spacious (lots of paying guests) and HEAVY.

With a cat the more you pay the less you get - that is weight. You pay for carbon fibres and they cost but they keep the weight down which is what counts on a cat. The lighter the better.

We chose the Orana 44. It is in fact a similar size to the 440 but much lighter and a hell of of a lot easier to sail. They are not more expensive. From the years of researching they are also the best value for money than any other cat (new) currently on the market.
I couldn't disagree with you more.

We sail the Lagoon 440 as a husband wife team and my lady is petite.... And we sail in rough waters, have weathered storms and ask anyone who knows where we dock her ...... A very difficult berth by all standards, and the two of us put her right in there even in heavy crosswinds.

We spend a lot of time on the flybridge (Man - just absolutely fantastic) together and when it is cold we spend it in the cabin together - steering either by auto pilot or remote helm station indoors - works like a charm.

Bare charted many boats before this one, sold the catana 471 and find the lagoon 440 is a fantastic all round home with very good speed. We have the owners version (3 cabin) and move onboard full time.

Everytime without fail, other cat owners who come aboard are blown away with the space and views if the 440..... Heavy ..... We never think of it as heavy because she sails fast and comfortably.

I may not like the support I get from Lagoon (which is zero) but I love their product.
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Old 05-06-2011, 20:58   #18
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

I know the 440 is a good boat. My friend sailed his through a big big storm in the Biscay to join the ARC and they survived with a just a few cracks in a bulkhead. Strangely however, he hasnít sailed it much since and it is now for sale.
A cat is not easy to dock in side winds, of course not unless it is heavy like the 440. It is easier with a flybridge you can see all around you but when you are short handed it is a long way to run down those stairs.
When we make short passages one of us tries to relax, lie down, make a drink, but we donít like to loose contact in case he on the helm sleeps or the other jumps overboard. So having a staircase and another storey between us is not what we want. In the Caribbean, where we are cruising, there is always something to keep you on your toes, but not enough to warrant a climb all the way up those stairs to a flybridge and down again. However, you always have to keep an eye on those sails.
Apart from the 440, which other cruising cat has a flybridge ?( On the other hand how many have the helm at the other extreme Ė on the scoop ? Catana, NautitechÖ? This must say something.
The 440 helm is very ergonomically designed. You have to bend right down to reach the engine controls and rubber neck from side to side to look at the instruments. Donít look at the boom you will never reach it.
In the 7 months I have been cruising the Caribbean I have honestly not seen many 440ís for cruising apart from as charter boats. There are many Catanaís, Fountaines, Privalege, Leopardís and Nautitechís. For sure the 440 can be used as a cruiser and if it wasnít for a crooked broker, I would have one (Thanks Mr Traub, you helped enlighten me)
As far as the 420 goes with its recent face lift it is still a huge huge chartere boat.

M&M , you started this Thread. Look at what other serious cruisers are sailing. Lagoon may appear to give value for money but many other production boat manufacturers do to.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:19   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluna
I know the 440 is a good boat. My friend sailed his through a big big storm in the Biscay to join the ARC and they survived with a just a few cracks in a bulkhead. Strangely however, he hasn’t sailed it much since and it is now for sale.
A cat is not easy to dock in side winds, of course not unless it is heavy like the 440. It is easier with a flybridge you can see all around you but when you are short handed it is a long way to run down those stairs.
When we make short passages one of us tries to relax, lie down, make a drink, but we don’t like to loose contact in case he on the helm sleeps or the other jumps overboard. So having a staircase and another storey between us is not what we want. In the Caribbean, where we are cruising, there is always something to keep you on your toes, but not enough to warrant a climb all the way up those stairs to a flybridge and down again. However, you always have to keep an eye on those sails.
Apart from the 440, which other cruising cat has a flybridge ?( On the other hand how many have the helm at the other extreme – on the scoop ? Catana, Nautitech…? This must say something.
The 440 helm is very ergonomically designed. You have to bend right down to reach the engine controls and rubber neck from side to side to look at the instruments. Don’t look at the boom you will never reach it.
In the 7 months I have been cruising the Caribbean I have honestly not seen many 440’s for cruising apart from as charter boats. There are many Catana’s, Fountaines, Privalege, Leopard’s and Nautitech’s. For sure the 440 can be used as a cruiser and if it wasn’t for a crooked broker, I would have one (Thanks Mr Traub, you helped enlighten me)
As far as the 420 goes with its recent face lift it is still a huge huge chartere boat.

M&M , you started this Thread. Look at what other serious cruisers are sailing. Lagoon may appear to give value for money but many other production boat manufacturers do to.
Aluna,
You obviously totally ignore the option mentioned of being indoors on the lagoon so you have a gripe with Mr Traub.
There are a number of cruising cats which have fly bridge - not just lagoon but unfortunately on average are priced high. The 440 has been cleverly designed to take a bridge given it's fit for the size if the boat.
I'm not sure you have sailed a 440 but I know a number of people who are Very serious sailors and have bought the 440 including the CEO of Barlowworld in South Africa, a man who does thorough homework, has sailed for many many years an has enough money to buy any boat he wishes. They are catching on really fast down here where the waters are rough and there us a demand for them. Why ...... When so many good cats are being manufactured here?
Perhaps if one is old, the stairs seem a long way up - for me it's not something I even think about when doing it.
The boom is easier to reach than you make out - it's a little thing called the topping lift - we let it down and we unzip the stackpack without climbing the mast.
As for bending to handle the controls and craneing ones neck - I have to laugh at these comments - sorry man - this is really out if the box.
We are also heading for the Carribean and we know of another two 440's also joining us from here, so im sure the Carribean is going to see more cruising 440s.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:55   #20
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

Impi
Don't forget, you have the option of going indoors on any boat.
Out of interest what other 44' cat has a flybidge. The only cats I know with a bridge are much bigger and have a paid crew. Even the new lagoon 450 is a struggle for two people.

As I am sure you know, Lagoon have replaced the 440 with the 450. They have added a foot in length and by doing so another massive 3 tonnes in weight. To compensate for this they increased the sail area by 30%. What was wrong with the 440 ?
Aluna
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:19   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluna
Impi
Don't forget, you have the option of going indoors on any boat.
Out of interest what other 44' cat has a flybidge. The only cats I know with a bridge are much bigger and have a paid crew. Even the new lagoon 450 is a struggle for two people.

As I am sure you know, Lagoon have replaced the 440 with the 450. They have added a foot in length and by doing so another massive 3 tonnes in weight. To compensate for this they increased the sail area by 30%. What was wrong with the 440 ?
Aluna
With the greatest of respect - yes, one has the option of going indoors on any boat but exactly the point - not every boat has the option of going onto a flybridge!

I know of no other 44 ft cats with a flybridge an most are on bigger boats which is why I am so thrilled Lagoon get such a workable flybridge to fit onto this size vessel - really well designed !

Yes, I am aware the 450 replaces the 440 and knew that when I bought my 440 brand new from the factory - I have my reasons for sticking with the 440 and could easily have done a 450. Similarly one of my friends went for the 450 and another the last of the 440s even though we had the option. It's all about what one is going to do with the cat - we are cruising and like the solid enclosure over the patio. It will always be a classic!

We also like the huge windows in the cabin and in the saloon in the lagoons because my wife likes light streaming into the lower cabins as well.

Non the less Aluna, I guess we all have our choices and I am certainly not willing to lower myself to start bashing your brand of boat. Not sure if you sell them? But I'm sure they are terrific boats too.

I think all have pros and cons - there is a little in every boat I would like to capture and put into one ideal boat, but hey, that's not the real world.

I have responded to what some perceive to be negative on the 440 and contrary to my experience as an owner - are even reasons why Ana and I are glad we purchased it. This is our 365 day a year home and we are really happy.

We are not sales people for Lagoon - goodness knows I dislike the manufacturers back up service but it's a fantastic cruising boat.

We wish you happy sailing and hope to meet up with you on our travels in the Carribean - maybe a pint or two on me.

M&M - ever in out neck of the woods - would love to take you out for a sail and let you see how we as two people really cope well and with ease in a Lagoon 440 - you are mist welcome any time.

Impi - out.
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Old 06-06-2011, 16:38   #22
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

You guys and girls are cracking me up. Interesting and informative "discussion" though. And entertaining.

How about best 2 out of 3?
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Old 07-06-2011, 16:09   #23
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Hey Aluna - at least we brought a smile to the forum !
I guess that's what's really important between us sailors out there !
Cheers
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Old 09-06-2011, 14:17   #24
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

Your own boat is always the best boat !
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:57   #25
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No,i disagree if my boat was a piece of crap i for one would tell people.
The only thing that is wrong with the 440 is the after sales service and attitude from lagoon!
I bet if i bought a new ferrari or porsche i would get my calls returned and be looked after and thats at 1/5 of the spend too.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:57   #26
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

I have realised that many boat owners are not willing to trash their boat in fear of reducing its' resale value. I know many owners having new boats with serious defects who would not dare publicise the fact.

Yes, It would also appear that many French boat manufactures are very bad with after sales service. Fountaine Pajot is another one. I try to put it down to the language problem.
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Old 10-06-2011, 16:05   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluna
I have realised that many boat owners are not willing to trash their boat in fear of reducing its' resale value. I know many owners having new boats with serious defects who would not dare publicise the fact.

Yes, It would also appear that many French boat manufactures are very bad with after sales service. Fountaine Pajot is another one. I try to put it down to the language problem.
I wish we could put it down to that with the guys at Lagoon - sadly Ana is French and we still are disgusted with their attitude and service. ...... And the most obnoxious character of all there is an Englishman, so I think they just duck and dive - once they have your money it's goodbye honey!
We have a plate on our boat and serial number with a CE certification stamp - asked them for the paperwork - no go!
We eventually decided to sort out the warranty stuff ourselves as it is just too frustrating to deal with them. Im convinced that's their game play but next time around - I'll be twice as sharp!
Check this out ( photo attached) for warranty repair on a brand new lagoon .....
And left like that for about a year ......
And try to complain ...... They make you feel like the village idiot!
Personally, I think it's a shame on them.
So Aluna, I'm not afraid to show the problems incase the resale value drops ( never crossed my mind) - the 440 is simply a really great cruising catamaran.
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Old 15-06-2011, 14:55   #28
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Thanks to all of you for this very informative and valueable discussion. It helped us a lot in our decision. Tomorrow we are going to have a look at a 440 which is on its way from Denmark to France, and making a stop over in Netherlands.
As my wife and I would finally like to sail in Thailand and Malaysia, the space on the 440 and especially the flybridge would be great as it will be much living outside.
We are looking for a good 2nd hand as we have experienced substantial write offs with our earlier ship,bought new.

Concerning the after sales service, which is clearly mentioned in several discussions on the forum, it,s too bad that a company like that doesnt take their customers (read salary) serious.
Again thanks to you all and we hope that we
can rely on you whenever we have additional questions. Cheers,
Maarten and Marjolein.
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Old 16-06-2011, 14:53   #29
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That sounds exciting !!!
Please let us know if you do the purchase and feel free to contact us anytime.
We removed the rear cabinet in the cockpit area (with basin) and have installed our washing/drying machine there. We got a Swiss cabinet maker to make a new one (all dimensions the same except taller doors and higher by 15mm as well as shifting the basin a bit).
This is really a great place to wash clothes and required no thru hull fitting as we simply put a T into the outlet of the basin.
I am having an ironing board made up which slots onto the taller table legs on the patio so all laundry can be done there.
The moulds for the cabinet are already made so if you ever want to do the same - they could make up a unit for you here and ship. Looks identical to the original with bigger doors and a basin made if the same material as the top.
Good luck with the negotiations!
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Old 16-06-2011, 15:55   #30
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Re: Lagoon 420 or 440??

M&M, There are some good buys in the far East as the Indian Ocean is as good as closed to cruisers and you can't sail any further. Many people buy a used boat in the Caribbean (ex. charter 440's - EUR 200-300k , cheap with loads of problems) and finally sail into the Pacific.
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