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Old 21-05-2016, 02:19   #61
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayanman View Post
Below are question i have sent to a broker by email on a boat I am negotiating on......

If anyone with knowledge about boats would give there thoughts I would appreciate it...

Am i CRAZY are any of my concerns justified...? do not worry you wont hurt my feelings... The mast goes right above and through the area that all this rot is...


I just want you to understand where I or other buyer may be coming from. Some buyers may not understand This could be a recurring problem every 4-5 years. If water keeps getting in there.

I think that you may be correct about the repair being done correctly.

Does anyone know how the water is getting in there..? Lagoon must know..?

I noticed the drainage holes that Lagoon recommends have not been done yet?.. does that mean water is collecting again behind the bulkhead..?


However i think the concern a lot of buyers looking at the 400 Lagoons are having is that yes the bulkhead rot can be repaired, But will it occur again and again.

Initially i was thinking it was from the hatch for compartment. Most info says its coming down between the front windows because the seal is failed. Also the Lagoon fix. still leaves a fair amount of water in that area after drainage holes are drilled. It does NOT fully drain .. thus the concern is every 5 years you will have this same situation where water rots the core material and the fiberglass will need to be repaired.

If in 2 years it starts to rot again and UNNOTICED while at sea you could have a complete failure of the mast in seas and wind could be potentially dangerous.
A proper repair of this damage that removes and replaces all rotten and wet timber with new materials that are better sealed than original, should not see a recurrance of this problem. Especially if drain holes are correctly positioned by drilling from the inside to maximize drainage.

The water tank shelf is non-structural so could completely rot away over many years with no drastic consequences. The main bulkhead is a different issue, it is structural and should be sound. Having said that, it's not likely to fail unless a very large proportion gets rotted. Even if this issue is ignored or inadequately "fixed" the inevitable failures will probably not occur for many years. This, I believe is Lagoon's strategy.

Unfortunately, its with no pride that I can admit to having owned or operated more than a couple of fiberglass boats that had rotten timber structural members. Some had stringers, transoms and soles so rotten that when they were removed i was amazed at how the boat survived the sea. The first signs of structural timber rot is usually a loss of rigidity. Hull flex will increase and eventually hull splitting or cracking will occur.

My point of view is that; this issue is one that is easily and ( relatively ) cheaply fixed. The sooner it is properly fixed the cheaper the cost. There is no panic to repair as the boat will not suffer catastrophic failure any time soon. The Lagoon "fix" is inadequate. If correctly repaired, the issue should not reoccur.

My concern is that ignoring or inadequately fixing this issue will cause the Lagoon 400 to get a totally undeserved bad reputation. Lagoon, are you listening?
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Old 21-05-2016, 06:25   #62
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
My concern is that ignoring or inadequately fixing this issue will cause the Lagoon 400 to get a totally undeserved bad reputation. Lagoon, are you listening?
The 400 has a serious issue that was caused by Lagoon. With the techincal note Lagoon acknowledged their responsibility.

FP had lots of boats with Osmosis over several model years. They stood behind their product and covered the repairs, sometimes even after the 5year warranty expired.

Now we will see if Lagoon does the same.
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Old 21-05-2016, 07:14   #63
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
The 400 has a serious issue that was caused by Lagoon. With the techincal note Lagoon acknowledged their responsibility.

FP had lots of boats with Osmosis over several model years. They stood behind their product and covered the repairs, sometimes even after the 5year warranty expired.

Now we will see if Lagoon does the same.
I could not agree more! I currently have a request for proper repair of this damage for consideration by Lagoon. I have provided photos and a shipwright's report to them.

Whatever their response, I will keep this forum informed.
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Old 21-05-2016, 09:22   #64
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
I could not agree more! I currently have a request for proper repair of this damage for consideration by Lagoon. I have provided photos and a shipwright's report to them.

Whatever their response, I will keep this forum informed.
Yes, please! I suppose that a few 400 will be affected by this. I like the 400 and it may well be my next boat so it will be good to know if Lagoon acknowledges their fault and fixes the issues.

I'm glad my Mahe doesn't have any wood in structure or core (but osmosis instead ).
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Old 22-05-2016, 02:50   #65
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post

The water tank shelf is non-structural so could completely rot away over many years with no drastic consequences. The main bulkhead is a different issue, it is structural and should be sound. Having said that, it's not likely to fail unless a very large proportion gets rotted. Even if this issue is ignored or inadequately "fixed" the inevitable failures will probably not occur for many years. This, I believe is Lagoon's strategy.
For my understanding - main bulkhead is where water tanks are attached to, & water pump and electric panel, etc? See pic of attachment of water tanks.

I have taken this shot to keep eye on stress cracks. Have not detected any wet area and boat stiff even in 25 kn true beam reaching full sails. Actually, I have never seen loose shroud on my boat yet and really want to keep it that way.
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:24   #66
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

found in lagoon user group:

One of the improvements on the 400 is the use of waterproof plywood. In case there is any water intrusion into the panel it will not expand or rot. It is a big advantage. Decreases weight as well.
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Old 29-05-2016, 07:58   #67
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Ha! Thank you for digging this out!
I knew I read this somewhere when tuskie first reported these rot issues in the watertank area.
I just could not remember where it was, but now that I looked at it in the owners group I see it was a reply to my own question

Obviously this guy was wrong.
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Old 29-05-2016, 15:01   #68
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Ha! Thank you for digging this out!
I knew I read this somewhere when tuskie first reported these rot issues in the watertank area.
I just could not remember where it was, but now that I looked at it in the owners group I see it was a reply to my own question

Obviously this guy was wrong.
as i understand lagoon says water intrusion will not make it rot or expand. But will still get soft. This is in line with my drilling experience when I felt wood was soft in one hole but only white particles came out. Presume that is better than rotting & expanding as well.
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Old 29-05-2016, 21:13   #69
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
found in lagoon user group:

One of the improvements on the 400 is the use of waterproof plywood. In case there is any water intrusion into the panel it will not expand or rot. It is a big advantage. Decreases weight as well.
The passage of time and our current experience and observations has proven this to be nothing but sales BS.

"Waterproof" plywood usually means that a water resistant glue is used to laminate the timber. "Marine" ply, as I understand uses similar glue with better timber for the outer layers. These all come in various grades and weights. Whilst they may be resistant to delaminating, they will most certainly rot if exposed to fresh water over time. This is what has actually happened.

This is yet another example of the failure of a marine timber product that has been touted as being "rot proof". I wish that I had $100 for every time I've been told, heard or read about timber products in boats that "definitely won't rot", which have subsequently proved "definitely do rot".

Sure, timber rot can be controlled by sealing out water with fibreglass. Unfortunately once water, even vapour, enters the timber it is then sealed in rather than out. Hence, the timber cannot dry out and rot accelerates. I'm also aware of boats constructed entirely of timber lasting many decades or longer. These vessels thrive on 2 things; cold water and plenty of salt. A working timber boat that regularly sluices the decks with salt water and keeps plenty of briney sloshing in the bilge will last for ages, particularly in a climate where there are penguins for company.

If you live in the tropics and prefer keeping salt water out of your boat, then timber should be regarded with utmost suspicion. There is absolutely no necessity for it, so why use it? The only sure way is; "no wood, no rot". I wish it was possible to buy a Lagoon style cruising cat manufacturered without structural ply or balsa. But that's another story.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:38   #70
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
I wish it was possible to buy a Lagoon style cruising cat manufacturered without structural ply or balsa. But that's another story.
Want to buy a FP Mahe? No strucutral wood, no bals core. All foam & glass.
Just kidding!


Any news from Lagoon if they are going to cover the cost of repair?
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Old 02-06-2016, 16:43   #71
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Want to buy a FP Mahe? No strucutral wood, no bals core. All foam & glass.
Just kidding!


Any news from Lagoon if they are going to cover the cost of repair?
Ha ha. 😀 Mahe is a fine boat, but a bit small for us to liveaboard.

Was very close to buying/building a Fusion 40, which also has zero structural timber.

All boats are a compromise and timber in structure is a definite negative for me, but it needs to be balanced with other attributes, including price.

Lagoon are making promising sounds regarding standing by their product and paying for repair. When the cheque is signed, I'll let you know!
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:50   #72
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Our L400 just underwent the 'surgery' on Friday.
The so called fix was done by the Cyprus Lagoon rep even though the boat is over 5 years of age. There was no argument as to responsibility.
There were few litres of water that drained out during drilling but to the naked eye there is no damage to the surrounding area.
I will fly out to Cyprus by the end of this week and if I would not forget, I will pack a humidity meter to check around the afflicted area.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:32   #73
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

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Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
Our L400 just underwent the 'surgery' on Friday.
The so called fix was done by the Cyprus Lagoon rep even though the boat is over 5 years of age. There was no argument as to responsibility.
There were few litres of water that drained out during drilling but to the naked eye there is no damage to the surrounding area.
I will fly out to Cyprus by the end of this week and if I would not forget, I will pack a humidity meter to check around the afflicted area.
pump out water from holes in water tank area. I managed to get out 2.5 L.

Now I can check if leak is current or has been fixed.

I did have thorough look at bulkhead from all angles and could not find any sign of water damage/rot either.
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Old 08-06-2016, 17:35   #74
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Just looking into removing side panel from port forward cabin ( long vinyl covered panel which runs full length of cabin ). To anyone that has removed this panel, would appreciate your tips on its removal & did it allow better visual examination than the water pressure pump access panel?



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 22-06-2016, 01:02   #75
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Re: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Yes, please! I suppose that a few 400 will be affected by this. I like the 400 and it may well be my next boat so it will be good to know if Lagoon acknowledges their fault and fixes the issues.

I'm glad my Mahe doesn't have any wood in structure or core (but osmosis instead ).
Great news!
Just had confirmation from Lagoon that they will cover the cost of a proper repair. The accepted quote is to remove water tanks, cut out rotten timber in water tank shelf and bulkhead and completely rebuild. Drain holes will be accurately positioned during the rebuild process.

The whole process has taken quite a while ; mostly due to a new Australian dealer being not as efficient as possible.
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