400: Lagoon 400 Technical Notice - Nacelle Drainage

[arsenelupiga]

i have drilled 2 holes in locker. Got 1 hour of gentle flow of clean water.

Drilled 7mm hole and will expand. Have not noticed rot, except port side felt bit softer than starboard when drilling.


I shaped the hole to have angle towards outside so no standing water in hole soaking balsa.

See how this goes. Not perfect but sure, worth doing.

[Sardean]

I have been shown that if you drill a hole through balsa core that it must be recessed (like with an allen key on a drill ) then filled with epoxy glue , then you can drill a hole and the balsa core will be sealed. I have seen where this has not been done and the balsa core goes soft and rots quite quickly!

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[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Sardean

I have been shown that if you drill a hole through balsa core that it must be recessed (like with an allen key on a drill ) then filled with epoxy glue , then you can drill a hole and the balsa core will be sealed. I have seen where this has not been done and the balsa core goes soft and rots quite quickly!

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hole size should be 10-12 mm I am thinking 12.

7 mm drill to get rid of water first. These 2 holes are not thru fiberglass and in mainly dry environment

Plan to wait till area dry, as water still coming out, and expand hole and use some sort of sealant - maybe sikaflex and cross fingers my first drill of boat will not start rot.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

hole size should be 10-12 mm I am thinking 12.

7 mm drill to get rid of water first. These 2 holes are not thru fiberglass and in mainly dry environment

Plan to wait till area dry, as water still coming out, and expand hole and use some sort of sealant - maybe sikaflex and cross fingers my first drill of boat will not start rot.

looking at it again i think will not try seal as this may cause rot. Non-perfect seal is worse than no seal, is my beginner thinking.

1. Lagoon instructions only say drill 10-12mm hole, no seal of any sort instructed. Lots of balsa in surrounding areas not protected, and is dry, so not that much moisture.
2. It is dry area and presence of water can be only momentarily and very rare, if at all.
3. It is not structural, so even if rot, is not an issue, and even if issues can be replaced.
4. water cannot stay and hole is able to dry. So i will make hole to lean to outside.
5. What matters is to protect structural balsa bulkhead, which is done by drilling holes.
6. Wet areas will not move up much due to gravity. So area under attack is then not big.

What other people think ?

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by tuskie

You'll understand if I don't wish to discuss too much about warranty at this stage, as negotiations are (hopefully) proceeding.

My boat is hull #141, bought by me 2.5 years old. It was originally purchased in France and shipped to Australia. Rot appeared well inside the 5 year period. TMG were the Lagoon dealership in Australia at the time the Technical Bulletin was released. Is the water tank shelf and main bulkhead part of the hull? I think so, but opinions apparently differ. Are dealers who have not sold a boat obliged to undertake warranty repairs on boats of that brand? Who knows?, but it's not the first time that ducking and buck passing between Lagoon and their dealers has featured in this forum.

Thanks Monte. You have substantiated that, (a) water is pooling, unseen, in this area, and (b) dealers that have not actually sold the boat are willing or obliged to fix the problem, through Lagoon, as they are that brand's local representative.

In view of point (a), I would caution owners who look in the nacelle hatch area and decide that all is sound and dry to think again. My boat looked fine until the rot produced soft areas and evidence of fungus. I hope that the "Lagoon fix", actually works to prevent rot in this area. I'd strongly suggest that any Lagoon 400 owners undertake the drainage procedure, AND pay a competent surveyor to climb in there with a moisture meter. Then access the rear of the main bulkhead via the inspection hatches next to the Nav station and in the port forward cabin. If high moisture levels are detected in the timber get it replaced. If the boat is under 5 years old, knock on the dealer's door.

My hull is #121 (2011) just passed the 5 years from acceptance date.
Our dealer acknowledged the problem after my query that was made after I have learned of the issue here on CF.
It seems that he is ready to cover the expenses involved, although the boat is at present not on his immediate vicinity (he is located in Israel, the boat is in Cyprus).
I will be on the boat in few days week and shall check the suspected area with moisture meter (it seems dry to the eye but the meter may tell a different story).
I believe that water can get in through the hoses fittings if no longer tight and sea water can get inside through the hatch if the rubber seal is dry and started to disintegrate.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

looking at it again i think will not try seal as this may cause rot. Non-perfect seal is worse than no seal, is my beginner thinking.

1. Lagoon instructions only say drill 10-12mm hole, no seal of any sort instructed. Lots of balsa in surrounding areas not protected, and is dry, so not that much moisture.
2. It is dry area and presence of water can be only momentarily and very rare, if at all.
3. It is not structural, so even if rot, is not an issue, and even if issues can be replaced.
4. water cannot stay and hole is able to dry. So i will make hole to lean to outside.
5. What matters is to protect structural balsa bulkhead, which is done by drilling holes.
6. Wet areas will not move up much due to gravity. So area under attack is then not big.

What other people think ?

Bulkheads and shelving is NOT balsa, it is ply. If it was balsa and so poorly sealed it would have rotted in days, not years. I'm not sure which grade of ply; it should be a marine grade, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Exposed timber, in this case ply, should be sealed once dry. It takes a long time to dry out once wet. If rot has started, it will never dry out and should be cut out and new timber scarfed in to replace it. I favour Everdure or similar type epoxy.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Bulkheads and shelving is NOT balsa, it is ply. If it was balsa and so poorly sealed it would have rotted in days, not years. I'm not sure which grade of ply; it should be a marine grade, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Exposed timber, in this case ply, should be sealed once dry. It takes a long time to dry out once wet. If rot has started, it will never dry out and should be cut out and new timber scarfed in to replace it. I favour Everdure or similar type epoxy.

thanks. learned something new here

[AZ_Zoner]

Originally Posted by monte

Craig, have a chat to Hubert, the local lagoon rep. net-boat@wanadoo.fr It will be a bit easier to do while the boat is hauled. Lagoon supply a kit but it's basically just two covers for the holes, probably just a few dollars from the chandler.
The water that drained was fresh and mostly clean so I assume it's rainwater coming in from deck joins and window seals that has no way to escape. We drilled the front locker hole right through the ply rather than removing the small ply panel forward of the water tanks.

Thanks Monte and thank all for the information.
Hubert is taking care of our boat this week. To bad it wasn't last week when we had it hauled out.

Let's meet for a beer or two when you get to St Anne.

Craig


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[neil28163]

I own a 2012 L400, which i love, having read this thread i contacted the dealer in Finland who i bought the boat from, as a demonstrator, he said he was aware of a minor recall and would send me the info, the delay he said was because i was doing a transatlantic L450F delivery, but it will now be on its way, we hope. I have just convinced my friend change to two hulls, and he is looking at a L400 in Turkey, 2010, extremely well looked after by all accounts, I mentioned to him to check this area, and to his amazement, the surveyor found soft wood, removed the water tanks and cut a whole in the bulkhead to find it FULL of water, with plywood starting to crack and look like delamination. i wont post the pictures, but VERY scary. I wil be checking my L400 tomorrow, and as under 5 yrs old will be looking to Lagoon to repair any defects due to the design fault. I just hope that Lagoon, as the worlds largest Cat manufacturer, upholds their commitment and arranges repairs for those owners that need them.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by neil28163

I own a 2012 L400, which i love, having read this thread i contacted the dealer in Finland who i bought the boat from, as a demonstrator, he said he was aware of a minor recall and would send me the info, the delay he said was because i was doing a transatlantic L450F delivery, but it will now be on its way, we hope. I have just convinced my friend change to two hulls, and he is looking at a L400 in Turkey, 2010, extremely well looked after by all accounts, I mentioned to him to check this area, and to his amazement, the surveyor found soft wood, removed the water tanks and cut a whole in the bulkhead to find it FULL of water, with plywood starting to crack and look like delamination. i wont post the pictures, but VERY scary. I wil be checking my L400 tomorrow, and as under 5 yrs old will be looking to Lagoon to repair any defects due to the design fault. I just hope that Lagoon, as the worlds largest Cat manufacturer, upholds their commitment and arranges repairs for those owners that need them.

why dont you post pictures? Would be fair, now that you described in words.

[neil28163]

Can't find a way to upload them !

[b_rodwell]

I got the new parts for the drainage and a cheque from Vicsail in Sydney. I haven't fitted them yet. I thought it was a minor problem but reading the posts (60l of water for Monte) I now will attend to it a little more urgently.

Now to a related issue if I may. Salt water ingress from where the boarding ladder is mounted on the left transom. That area is certainly subject to salt water a lot of the time. I have read that the ladder mount goes through end grain balsa and that balsa is subject to rot. I believe the correct action is to clean out the balsa and substitute epoxy and filler. Then rebed the ladder with butyl tape.

I haven't done any of this yet. My question is have you done it? What did you find? I would be interested to know both ways - have you reattached it or not?

I am trying to work out my priorities.

Thanks
Brian

[tuskie]

In my prepurchase survey the moisture meter found high readings ( ie. Rot ) around the ladder mounts. I will do exactly as you recommend but wish to replace the ladder with a more sensible design that doesn't stick up a metre and get in the way. This may require different mount positions and sealing up old positions.

In the matter of prioritising jobs this is low, the nacelle/ bulkhead is high. Everyone on this forum who has drilled holes in a L400 nacelle has found damaging quantities of fresh water. Everyone who knows how and where, and has actually looked at the main bulkhead in the vicinity of the lower nacelle has found evidence of rot.

Lagoon's "fix" is equivalent to giving asprin to someone with a brain tumor! Inadequate.

[AZ_Zoner]

We had the repair work done last week. When the tech was done he told us that we were dry and no moisture was ever present. Big relief!


Craig

[peterp]

Originally Posted by AZ_Zoner

We had the repair work done last week. When the tech was done he told us that we were dry and no moisture was ever present. Big relief!


Craig

Hello Craig, could you or any one else provide some pictures of exactly where the hole's have been drilled, I do have the paper instructions however it would be most helpful to see a finished job. Thanks in advance. Regards Peter