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Old 06-02-2011, 05:20   #391
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L400 fuel, D&D, Hanafe, Finish

Welcome Hammer to our Lagoon 400 thread, I have been absent for a while, just logged on and read your sentence re cringing at my fuel problems, I should have reported back to the group earlier as there is no problem, the reason I thought there was a problem was because when I took delivery I though the folk that commissioned my L400 had filled both tanks evenly, however they did not, I now have the benefit of having filled up both tanks myself and both fuel gages read evenly as the fuel is used.
Hanafe, I enjoyed your video just curios it doesen’t look like there is any pontoon’s for one to step on or to tie up too.
D&D congratulations on your purchase of a 440 no less, you just had to go that one better, good luck with your purchase. I type this in bed on my L400 late on the last day of the 2011 Melbourne boat show, I had to allow the Lagoon dealer to use it for display purposes as part of our purchase arrangements no big deal quite enjoyed the show.
To any one that is interested I have now owned and used my L400 since August last year I have about sixty hours on the engines and used it generally as a weekender on typically three to four hour sailing trips, in this relatively short time I am of the opinion that this is a outstanding cruiser I have every option fitted by the factory including gen set with reverse cycle air con with little or no problems. With respect to the comments re the finish I am very happy with mine, in fact today I looked at a as new FP 44 and a as new Seawind 1250, my Lagoon 400 is every bit as good and would recommend this craft without hesitation.
Kind regards Peter
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Old 06-02-2011, 15:43   #392
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Lagoon quality

I don't really want to upset anyone but .................. as far as finish goes, I think that some people have unrealistic expectations.

If a Lagoon cat cost the same as any of the other more bespoke brands, then i think that most of us may not have made it into brand-new-40-foot-cat ownership. And there has to be some evidence of some cost cutting in order to achieve the 'bargain Lagoon prices' that make cat ownership accessible for the common man/woman.

I have owned 4 Beneteau group boats (2monos and 2 cats) and they have all had faults. I could go round each boat and pick fault. However, most of the faults were small quality control issues, and many of them should have been picked up by the dealer or me before handover. They have though, all been sorted out by the agent. And any snag-list is a dynamic list as more faults are discovered, and a few mairaculously fix themselves.

Like our toilet flush pump. Whenever the agent looks at it, the pump seems to work faultlessly, and equally as reliable, whenever the wife uses it in the night, it fails to bloody work. I can almost walk to the head, open the cupboard, thump the pump, and make it work, then return to bed, without opening my eyes.

I often moan about my boat, and all the little bits that I find, and all the little faults that occur. However, when I visit a boat show and ask myself if I would rather have any other boat there, even allowing maybe 25% on top of the budget.......... I am happy with my Lagoon 400.
The Lagoon 400 is a fine boat for extended time spent aboard, especially for a couple. And it's good value for money. And I can't afford the same product at twice the price, but maybe with a bit more woodwork. And after selling our L380 last year, I know that there is a market for them and you can, when you are fed up, sell Beneteau group products.

So, I for one, am happy with my purchase. And my wife, who actually made the decision is too!

Cheers

Garold
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Old 06-02-2011, 19:23   #393
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Hi Gerold and Peter,

I fully I agree what you say concerning the price and quality ratio, but it does not excuse the poor final quality control on boats, and this is not only Benteau/Lagoon, but the whole industry. It is the same problem on even higher priced boats. It is the attitude of the industry to get away with it.
I had a long long snag list and step by step everthing was solved. It took a lot of, unlikely also nasty e-mails, and more than a year!
The reasonable price does not excuse that entrance doors are not closing and locking etc etc.. A long list of little things! It cost the manufacturer more to take care on these issues in after sales instead of paying for a proper final quality control at the first place.
I am manufacturing on my own. I know what I am talking about.
I just bought a new little Mercedes. Do you think there is one tiny little thing that is not working absolutly working to perfection? Of course everything works fine and compared to a Lagoon it is a small price tag, but a high tech product. The drivers seat is more complicate than a whole catamaran.
I am sure I get a lot of comments now, but you know what I mean. There are no problem with the navigation system or the aircon etc., and all doors are locking. No problem with the fuel tank and so on.

Peter:
Concerning our moorings. We have a bouy at the bow and one at the stern. One boat next to each other. It is very narrow to go in. Sometimes we have less space than the beam of our boat and need to push the bouy a side first with one hull to get enough room to go in.
There is no pontoon to step on. We go and leave the boat by little water taxis which are available all the time for small money.
It sounds inconvinient but it isn't, as the water taxi is picking us up right next to our car and brings us directly to the boat.
We have water, but no shorepower, which brings me back to anther quality issue.
The control units of all 4 aircons got burnt at the same time. Nothing else broken on the boat. Definetly no lightning. The only power we get is from the generator as we have no shore power. The generator output is meassured and correct.
Has anybody any idea what can cause this failure. The agent had no idea and also not the company who is repairing the units now. That is the official cruise air dealer.
Did anyone experience a similiar problem?

Cheers
HanaFe
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:09   #394
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Hanafe

I think that you misunderstood me. I wasn't meaning to suggest that it was good enough quality when compared with other products from other industries. I meant to say that it was fine for what you pay given that we are talking about the 'marine leisure industry'.

I feel that the value for what you pay is pretty good. And the product itself is well designed, fairly innovative, lasts well, holds its value reasonable well, and doesn't have much evidence of faults that are structural or life-threatening.

But the 'marine leisure industry' is a separate topic all on its own. For a start its not an 'industry' because even the main manufacturers operate as 'cottage businesses' in their approach to cutomer care and quality assurance. And sometimes, given the heartache they often impose on their customers, they do take out the 'leisure' bit too as the enjoyment can be removed from boat ownership as one tries to eliminate a long list of faults.

However, back to Lagoon. I think the quality of the Lagoon agent is important. We have been lucky so far with Ancasta, in the UK, as they have been fairly quick and willing to address any problems that we have had. It seems like some Lagoon agents in some countries have not been so able or willing to fix things. I believe that this is because Beneteau gives the dealers an extra margin from which they have to fund their own warranty work after the initial delivery snags have been sorted out. If this is so, then it is clearly not in the dealer's interest to fix too many costly items.

Comparisons to a Mercedes? I believe that when I started driving, new cars were as faulty and unreliable as new yachts are now. So maybe if we wait 35 years (the time period from when I started driving) we should witness the development of the 'marine leisure cottage businesses' into a 'marine leisure industry'. I can even remember not so long ago when computers or screens were often delivered with start -up faults. Not very likely now.

And yes, we have friends with other brands of yachts and motor boats, and they all have the same snags from new. So no escaping the first year of snagging by switching brands.

Cheers

Garold
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Old 07-02-2011, 16:59   #395
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Hi Garold,

I like the expression cottage business. It couldn't describe it better.

Cheers

HanaFe
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Old 07-02-2011, 17:11   #396
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L400 Quality

Hello Garold and Hanafe, and all, I think we are all in the same boat errr cat (pardon the pun) we are stuck with what we have been delivered like it or not, Garold is correct what ever faults one’s craft has it really is the backup the dealer gives you that ultimately makes you a happy chappie, I am quite happy with my dealer in that respect and I am pleased with the finish on my 400 as I said in my previous post at the boat show this weekend FP and a Australian made Seawind were on display as well as mine, frankly our 400 has nothing to be ashamed off. With respect to the equipment installed all that has warranty from local dealer’s such as Raymarine I had a couple of minor problems there but they have been quickly solved by the local dealer. Hanafe, I have not experienced any issues so far with my Cruisair reverse cycle air con system but to be fair so far I have hardly used it, you mentioned the sliding door problem I recall that same door had that problem on the first demo 400 I inspected the latch was at the top and it was poorly fitted and did not lock properly that 400 was hull number three my 400 is hull number ninety three that same sliding door latch is now located on the bottom and a is a much better design works fine, I think also as these problem become apparent in early production models they are hopefully solved or improved as with other products including motor cars in later production models.
Kind regards Peter
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Old 07-02-2011, 17:36   #397
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Talking Dealer Quality

+1 on the comments about the dealer making all the difference. We've been very happy with our Lagoon 400 once the smelly head was solved (thanks to comments here and our dealer). About the only thing that I'd still like to solve is getting it to sit still when we're on the hook or a mooring ball. We use the yoke, so it's not that. I think that the high freeboard just catches the wind so much more than the other boats. It does tend to make others give us a little more swing room in the anchorages.

We'll see how it does in the BVI Spring Festival Catamaran Division in a few weeks. Win, lose, or just sailing around in the BVIs, it'll be great!

Cheers,
Lucky
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:11   #398
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Hello Mark. I think this is fine I like the Lagon 400 specific thread rather than a general Lagoon thread.
Regards Peter
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:10   #399
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Hi Mark,
I also like the specific L 400 thread instead of a general Lagoon owners thread.

best regards
HanaFe
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Old 09-02-2011, 14:16   #400
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Moved thread under Lagoon Catamarans

Hey guys,

I don't know if you noticed but they moved this thread under a Lagoon Catamaran folder. It looks like we can have it both ways
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:56   #401
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Quality Control

Hello guys

Thank you for welcoming me. The research stage of (future) yacht ownership is definitely exciting and a bit of information overload at the same time. There is just so much to learn, read and see.

Congratulations D&D on your new yacht. I hope you guys post some pictures soon.

The discussions happening here is very helpful. I'm certainly learning a great deal. It seems quality is such hot topic at the moment, and what a subjective matter it is too.

I can see points of view by all. Based on my short research to date, I agree the L400 is great value for money. But I also understand what Hanafe is conveying.

I believe the discussion on quality should be quality control.

I believe Hanafe is not suggesting using better quality products, but rather better quality control by boat manufacturers on their products. Making sure each part of the boat works, slide, twist, open and shut properly before it leaves the factory.

Don't all manufacturers (no matter what industry) have quality control personnel? But is seems based on what you're saying, the whole cruising yacht industry just don't have good ones (or don't care).

When you buy an item you'd expect it to perform its intended function – whether it’s a toaster or items in a yacht. Using the car analogy, you'd expect the sunroof, satnav or headlights to work etc. no matter if it’s a Ford or a Rolls Royce. Is it too unreasonable to expect the same from a yacht?

It also makes me think if something as obvious as uneven gaps; unseal head floors etc, what about items that are not visible (wiring, hull casting etc).

So my own concern is not the materials used – a lot of you have convinced me the materials used on the L400 is good enough. My concern is the lack of (good) quality control by Lagoon.

PS. Peterp, the “cringe” moment I meant wasn’t your uneven fuel levels, but your pontoon incident when refuelling, causing a gash on your brand new hull.
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:21   #402
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You shouldn't confuse quality control (as in ISO 9001) with simple inspections. Any manufactures should at least execute inspections in his production line to ensure adherence to their own manufacturing standard resulting in satisfied customers. In the ideal world these inspectors act like they were the client inspecting their own boat. This works better in the car industry than in the boating industry (probably due to larger volumes). Unfortunately we do not live in the ideal world and the customer carries out the work the inspector should have done. Then it all depends on the service the manufacturer can deliver; again the bigger (car manufacturers) the better. Bigger means less influence on detail design; making the choice even more complex.

Eric
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Old 10-02-2011, 16:42   #403
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Hanafe and all,
The quality control is a challenge for any business however I think the bigger the company the more likely that company will have the scale and resources to meet engineering and certification criteria that gives people like us a safe boat, that was my thoughts and a comfort zone buying the Lagoon, I think quality of fit and finish can be a evolving thing particularly with a new model such as the Lagoon 400, the first one I inspected and sailed was hull number three whilst the big picture, the over all designe layout suited me I could see some poor fittings such as the sliding door bolt that Hanafe mentioned, I think that has been modified, mine works fine, Hanafe I have attached a picture for you to compare maybe if it has been upgraded you may be able to retro fit it. I also attached a picture of a ladder that folds up into a small bag thought it may come in usefull one day, and a picture in Melbourne after the boat show last weekend. My hull is number ninety three I believe the fit and finish whilst subtle is much better than that of hull number three I first inspected. So just my thoughts maybe it’s better never to buy the ‘A’ model of anything wait for the minor problems to be sorted. Regards Peter
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Old 10-02-2011, 16:55   #404
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Peterp,

Nice ride.

Just want to let everyone know the New Lagoon Forum is set up.
We have organized all the Lagoons by models

Please use the new Forum and tools to get right to your Lagoon model or all models
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f139/?prefixid=Lag400

Cordially,
Mark
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Old 10-02-2011, 16:56   #405
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Hi Hammer,

you understood my meaning by 100%.
Any product leaving a factory, cheap or expensive needs to perform according to its design.
I guess the material used in the Lagoons/Benetaeus are of good enough standard. It is the final quality controll at the end, which is pushed to the client as Eric is mentioning correctly.
Concerning big volume and small volumes I agree to the point that the big volumes help on the price calculation, as the piece costs are reduced of course, but concerning the quality control I do not see the volumes as the only excuse. Small volumes are much easier to control than the big volumes.
Nobody is expecting that a yacht builder is building one piece first and test it sailing round the world, like car manufacturers do in a certain way. Lagoon is not too bad in this kind of development anyway as they nowadays built two boats first and than make changes in design from hull #3 onwards.
Said this, I still think the product leaving the factory needs to function without fail according to its design. A not closing door is a very minor thing of course but it is one of the best examples for not existing quality control. My snag list was a 3 pages Excel sheet in portrait printing by the way. More less all is done now. So far so good, means from my point of view the boat is better than new, now.

HanaFe
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