380: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

[boom23]

Originally Posted by rabbi

so how does one get in then? just in case someone is trapped inside.
I haven't seen hammers outside

On my L450 there is an external hammer at the liferaft location.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by boom23

On my L450 there is an external hammer at the liferaft location.

good to know!
maybe not the best location on a stern heavy cat

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rabbi

good to know!
maybe not the best location on a stern heavy cat

i think flip needs to be carefully prepared for. air bubble in engine rooms needs to be sealed properly. But testing that is impossible.

I am thinking some kind of truck tyre tubes or similar placed in aft rooms & electric pump & manual backup one will sure add buoyancy and $ effective solution. Solves life raft access issue. Bows are buoyant enough.

Air pump can fill say 2 m3 of tubes in 1 hour which will create enough buoyancy for good aft floating . 1 hour i think is reasonable preparation time as there is no irreversible damage.

After flip
Break escape hatch for additional air & add board and I think it comes close to survivable in storm conditions. Not sure about water surges in hull.

Any comment Rovin?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i think flip needs to be carefully prepared for. air bubble in engine rooms needs to be sealed properly. But testing that is impossible.

All Lagoons that I know have several hoses running through the engine compartment bulkhead. It will be hard to create a fully airtight seal so floatation won't last long.


Staying inside will be a problem: Everything is full of debris and diesel, everthing is awash, and there is nothing to hold on to unless one has handrails on the floor. One would probably need an air mattress just to get the body out of the water.
If the batteries are located inside the main hull, the air in that hull will become toxic.


I would not place any bets on the idea with the air tubes. One would need to wait until wind & seas have calmed, but by then the inverted and submerged batteries will be dead. And its necessary to inflate below water level to achieve some lift, which requires a lot of power.

In my view any floatation needs to be permanently installed or chances are high that deployment fails. That leaves only sections with closed cell foam or sealed air pockets, like the bow compartments.
Which by the way also have hoses for draining on some cats and may loose some floatation over time.


The Mahe is doing quite OK with regard to floatation after capsize: solid bulkheads in the engine compartments without any hoses, same for the bow compartments, and foam filled floatation chambers under the aft bunks, lower half of the bow compartments, under the saloon settee.

But sill I doubt she will be more than just a platform one could tether to. Surviving for hours or living inside is pretty unlikely in my view. I hope I will never find out.

[arsenelupiga]

regarding port side:
diesel tank and batteries are tied to the bottom with substantial fittings so if boat floats enough inverted gel batteries and tank will not swim in water most of time. Disconnecting batteries before lessens impact.

I am not convinced fuel tank shoud leak inverted. Why ?

i am also hoping not to experience this, however, having plan makes one in better spirits during storm , as in worst case still have though out plan. So overall it may be worth it for better moral.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

regarding port side:
diesel tank and batteries are tied to the bottom with substantial fittings so if boat floats enough inverted gel batteries and tank will not swim in water most of time. Disconnecting batteries before lessens impact.

I am not convinced fuel tank shoud leak inverted. Why ?

Not intending to bash the 400 (I love it!), but I would not expect it float that high. Engine compartments will be flooded completely, batteries will be in the water for sure, and diesel tanks maybe submerged, too.

Of course diesel tanks should not leak inverted, but I guess many will. Not fully tight fittings, deformation from sitting inverted, fuel lines snapped or damaged by debris, etc.

[Delafontaine]

ref. post 124 <<The Mahe is doing quite OK with filled floatation chambers under the aft bunks, lower half of the bow compartments, under the saloon settee.>>

This will not help much when inverted, you would need the flotation 'in the roof'. Could just help from sinking.

Guy (Former insurance broker for Lloyd's of London.)

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Delafontaine

ref. post 124 <<The Mahe is doing quite OK with filled floatation chambers under the aft bunks, lower half of the bow compartments, under the saloon settee.>>

This will not help much when inverted, you would need the flotation 'in the roof'. Could just help from sinking.

Guy (Former insurance broker for Lloyd's of London.)

True, for inverted floating the foam will have limited effects. The saloon settee should float the boat a bit higher and the foam under the aft bunks should help to keep the boat somewhat level. But the main floatation will be the air trapped in bow compartments, hull and engine compartments.


But as said, I expect it to be not more than a stable platform to tether to. I expect the Mahe to do better than some other cats, but still it won't be liveable.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Delafontaine

ref. post 124 <<The Mahe is doing quite OK with filled floatation chambers under the aft bunks, lower half of the bow compartments, under the saloon settee.>>

This will not help much when inverted, you would need the flotation 'in the roof'. Could just help from sinking.

Guy (Former insurance broker for Lloyd's of London.)

you would inflate BEFORE flip. Kind of precaution. With 70L per minute 12 V pump can be rather quick. These tubes (or similar) placed in aft rooms port and starboard and blocked so not to slip forward. When boat inverted will assist in keeping aft of boat much higher. I think 1 m3 each side more than enough for decent flotation. If no flip, just pack it back.

I dont see why extra flotation can be bad, even if you end up surviving storm outside.

[boatman61]

There's another straw.. Grab it quick.!!

[malbert73]

Diesel will likely always leak from inverted boat from vent hose. Which now becomes drain hose. Maybe not the entire tank since it will build up a vacuum?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[unclemack]

If I had a cat I think I'd quite like to have a chance of preventing it from flipping all the way over - allowing at least the possibility of righting it with wave action, selective pumping etc.

Years ago, long before airbags in cars were around, Prout (I think) experimented with floats at the masthead. Guessing weight, windage, public perception and just plain ugliness killed the idea.

Seems to me it might be worth doing the sums again if it hasn't happened recently.
Not my field of interest, just curious.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by unclemack

If I had a cat I think I'd quite like to have a chance of preventing it from flipping all the way over - allowing at least the possibility of righting it with wave action, selective pumping etc.

Years ago, long before airbags in cars were around, Prout (I think) experimented with floats at the masthead. Guessing weight, windage, public perception and just plain ugliness killed the idea.

Seems to me it might be worth doing the sums again if it hasn't happened recently.
Not my field of interest, just curious.

Iroquois Catamarans

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's another straw.. Grab it quick.!!

That's funny Boatman

I didn't ask Roven before but will now,

Did the mast break when the boat turtled?

I'm guessing most would in storm situations so any conversations about righting a cat afterwards is fruitless. Besides, by the time you get your crap together the calverley will have saved you.

This was an unfortunate but avoidable accident. Worrying about an inversion is a pretty big waste of time IMO. There are at least 10 more likely problems that will put you in danger before an inversion.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Palarran

That's funny Boatman

I didn't ask Roven before but will now,

Did the mast break when the boat turtled?

I'm guessing most would in storm situations so any conversations about righting a cat afterwards is fruitless. Besides, by the time you get your crap together the calverley will have saved you.

This was an unfortunate but avoidable accident. Worrying about an inversion is a pretty big waste of time IMO. There are at least 10 more likely problems that will put you in danger before an inversion.

And.. if it does invert on a crossing there is evidence it not sinking (?????) is insufficient to save your life beyond the 72hr life of the EPIRB.. if you had time to grab it.. or anything come to that.. seen too many seize up and sit there going "Oh ****..!! OH SHIIIIIITTTT..!! in moments of stress..
Mono and Cat..
Ones survival is down to the individual as this tale shows.. once in the River of no Return