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Old 27-02-2016, 15:14   #106
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Am I right in thinking that you would use a longer bridle on a cat than might be OK for a mono?

Seems like avoiding shock loads hitting one hull (or forebeam end) then the other might be important?

Never been there so just guessing.
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Old 27-02-2016, 15:20   #107
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

I'd imagine so. Our bridles are 25 m long. Rode is 100m, 40mm braided nylon.


IMO with that much nylon, it's catenary and stretch, serious shock loads would be very much reduced.
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Old 27-02-2016, 15:30   #108
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

never been there either. I see clear case for drogue as storm technique on a cat, but parachute, I cant see working on lagoons.

Maybe these windows are strong enough. and bows with enforcements can pull boat thru breaker, but I strongly doubt, without any structural damage that may cause fast sink.

Boat say 5 m underwater at worst point during pull, pressure on any openings are monstorous, including hull structure.

Low volume, no openings, near full net bridgedek cat will do fine in this situation, but not lagoon.

With tons of buoyancy and stability running is the way. One can nearly beam reach with this technique and offers ability to avoid worst during day, at least.
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Old 27-02-2016, 15:36   #109
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Sure. I was just responding to some questions. Don't really have a preference, and would most likely opt for a drogue if there was room downwind.


But that may be the problem - you may not be far from a lee shore, or a barrier reef, especially on the East coast of Australia.
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Old 27-02-2016, 15:41   #110
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Sure. I was just responding to some questions. Don't really have a preference, and would most likely opt for a drogue if there was room downwind.


But that may be the problem - you may not be far from a lee shore, or a barrier reef, especially on the East coast of Australia.
You right. now I am reading about bars and difficulties entering them, I may have to rethink my view.
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Old 27-02-2016, 19:37   #111
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Rovin, Thank you for sharing your experiences with us and I'm sorry for the loss of your mate. I remember reading about it many years ago.

I was wondering about a few things. Your conditions were much worse but on my crossing from the Caribbean we got stuck in above 40 knot winds for 72 hours. For almost 24 of those the winds were nearly constant at 50. During that period, we motored directly into the seas with both engines at about 3 knots SOG. Any less than that we would lose steering and over that we would slam off the tops of the swells hard. It was very difficult to keep a straight course at night.

So a question, did you try motoring direct into the seas at any time?

On the last day of our gale, we turned and started running towards Africa. We had just a hanky of jib out and the wind had dropped to 40 knots so much different conditions. Our boat angle was about 120 degrees to wind and waves. Again, they were smaller swells (big as F*&^ in my eyes at the time though :-) ) but our speed didn't go over 5 knots and we seldom surfed.

Another question, did you run dead down wind or at an angle?

My last question may be in the video but, How did you get out of the boat?

I'll add that I can appreciate your view of the waves from the stern filling up your vision. My mate and I laughed that if you stood in the sliding door way there were times that all you could see was the wave, no sky, and then sky, no wave.

Thank you again for sharing. FWIW, I have seen many catamarans with their life rafts cut into the corner of the trampoline so if inverted you would remove it from the bottom of the tramp. It's like 50% above and below the tramp. Pretty smart way to do it IMO.


To answer your first question yes we did. We motor sailed into the wind at the closest angle we could because that was a course to get into Bermuda as quick as possible. We did this for 3 days and made progress I am not sure what our SOG was but it sounds about the same. But Monday morning when the other system moved in the winds went from the 30-35kt constant to 50-55kt constant in about 4 hours. Like I said before the gust that we were seeing pushed through about 63kts. The waves changed mood very quickly in that 4 hour period. I first started noticing breakers around 10:00 am, we had already decided to turn and run by then (i think early morning).
There was no way those engines were going to push us up those faces. It keeps coming back to the period of the waves, it was very short. They waves became walls and all the waves became breakers. This may have contributed to my survival, there was no doubt in my mine by 12:00 pm that we were not going to get out alive. So i took measures early to TRY to see if I could pull it off.

We ran from the waves i believe in the same manner as you did on the starboard quarter. But our speeds were frightening (different boat, weight, who knows) our boat was a delivery with nothing on it accept for our clothes, food and anchor. No dingy, electronics, genset, water maker etc. One of the many reasons that Steve passed is because he was driving for a long period of time trying steer down the faces of these waves and with the speed not bury the bows.

When I spoke in length to the CG after the accident their ground radar from the C-130 confirmed 35-45 footers. I also did find out some disheartening info from them...The helicopter was considering aborting because they felt that their swimmer was being put into too much danger.

To answer your last question. This was one of those "jesus christ" moments where it is fused in my DNA.

On the Lagoon 380 and other catamarans there are escape hatches somewhere in both hulls. As a lot of people especially, when you charter them will see these hatches and think "oh that's a cool window or whatever" and I was one of these people until the moment when Steve yelled "grad the ditch bag we will be behind you." I ran to the escape hatch and all of the writing on the hatch made sense.
Meaning now it was right side up..."jesus christ"
I'll never forget that. It was the true start to the rabbit hole of emotions that i would fall down over the next 30-40 minutes until I pulled myself out and got my **** together.
And to add to that I remember standing on the dock looking over the boat in France and thinking "why are there D rings next to those windows??"

When I opened that hatch that beautiful Dring was the first thing I saw looking left. Hooked my life line on and out I went.
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Old 27-02-2016, 19:47   #112
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

There are some times when getting into a liferaft makes sense, and remember, the people involved in this incident experienced a disorienting catastrophic event at a time when they had a great deal of wind plus peaked up seas from intersecting swell patterns. However, how well do you think you'd do in a liferaft in 40 ft. seas and 50-60 kn. of wind? Their vessel, though grievously damaged, and very down at the stern, managed to stay afloat so many hours that they were rescued. I feel concerned that the fear of the mother boat sinking could lead one to a more proximate death sentence in the liferaft.

arsenelupiga, You are unlikely to encounter conditions like what Rovin was in along the East Coast of Australia. Your cruising will be voluntary, for fun, and you will be choosing your weather to your boat's best advantage. There are lots of barred entrances along NSW, and Alan Lucas' advice in Cruising the NSW Coast for planning your arrival to catch the tide work well. Be very careful with the entrance to Pt. Macquarie, as if you get on the leads too far out, the track will take you over the bar. I'd have to look at the chart again, for your draft, as our planning is based on our drawing 2.2m, and yours is far less. Remember, Rovin's first lesson was to not be there then!

A

On edit: I just saw Rovin's most recent post. What a great deal he had on all his clothes to help insulate him against the cold of the Atlantic in winter!

Rovin, thank you so much for continuing your posts.

Ann
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Old 28-02-2016, 02:23   #113
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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A sea anchor should be big enough and strong enough to just about stop ANY drift astern. That's the whole point of them.
With a sea anchor you will always drift astern.

The question is how fast in a given wind strength.
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Old 28-02-2016, 03:01   #114
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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With a sea anchor you will always drift astern.

The question is how fast in a given wind strength.
Correct. Which is why I said "just about stop" the drift astern. It will drift of course, but the aim is to be drifting very slowly.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:39   #115
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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You can on a Privilege... There is a locking bar that will - or at least should - drop off if the boat is ever inverted leaving you then with a standard lewmar hatch that can be opened from the outside.

I fly out on Saturday for an offshore passage to St Lucia and you can be certain I'll be checking that the locking bar is still free to move.
We have a brand new Lagoon 380 in our fleet. The hatches on it do not open. There is a stainless steel hammer in the cabin in a box that you use to break them open an emergency.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:52   #116
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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We have a brand new Lagoon 380 in our fleet. The hatches on it do not open. There is a stainless steel hammer in the cabin in a box that you use to break them open an emergency.

Wouldnt it better to be abke to close it to maintain the air pocket and flotation in an inverted cat?

Maybe that risk is smaller than the actual risk of charter guests leaving the hatch open under way?


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Old 28-02-2016, 06:53   #117
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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With a sea anchor you will always drift astern.
That's only partially correct. The wind induces surface drift, effectively a current. This decreases with the depth of the water, so the para-anchor is ideally in slower-moving water than the boat. So while the boat may make negative groundspeed (sternway relative to the ground), it will make headway relative to the surface current.
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Old 28-02-2016, 08:02   #118
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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We have a brand new Lagoon 380 in our fleet. The hatches on it do not open. There is a stainless steel hammer in the cabin in a box that you use to break them open an emergency.
And those hatches are made of what? Plexiglass or glass?

Don't seem a good idea to me: if they are fragile and somewhat easy to break it is not good in tough conditions, if they are really tough then even with an hammer they should be difficult to break in a way that allows safe passage.

I would hate to be in a stressefull situation on a capsized boat with an hammer in a hand thinking to myself: Let's see what is the best way to break this thing! On those situations thinking is hard.

Do you know if those hammer escape hatches is the norm now in all Lagoons? I thought that by the RCD they had to have escape hatches. Is that acceptable by the RCD or is only used for places where the RCD is not mandatory, as a way to lower prices?
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Old 28-02-2016, 12:34   #119
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Toughened glass is extremely difficult to break with a blunt object. There are special hammers which have sharp points on them which break this glass easily.


This is quite common practise on vehicles such as buses.
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Old 28-02-2016, 13:31   #120
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Toughened glass is extremely difficult to break with a blunt object. There are special hammers which have sharp points on them which break this glass easily.


This is quite common practise on vehicles such as buses.
so how does one get in then? just in case someone is trapped inside.
I haven't seen hammers outside
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