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Old 25-02-2016, 09:07   #76
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

I come from a power boat background.
I have a hard time thinking that not sticking the pointy end of the boat into the waves when it gets really bad to not be the best option. Of course if you look at the Sportfishing boats I grew up with, they all have wide, flat, low transoms, with big swim platforms, and large sliding glass doors.
I have no Multi experience either, my current thought is if it gets really bad in my mono is to deploy that chute off the bow with 400' of three strand nylon.
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Old 25-02-2016, 09:12   #77
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pirate Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I come from a power boat background.
I have a hard time thinking that not sticking the pointy end of the boat into the waves when it gets really bad to not be the best option. Of course if you look at the Sportfishing boats I grew up with, they all have wide, flat, low transoms, with big swim platforms, and large sliding glass doors.
I have no Multi experience either, my current thought is if it gets really bad in my mono is to deploy that chute off the bow with 400' of three strand nylon.
Switch to Multiplait.. more expensive but.. oh so much better..
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Old 25-02-2016, 13:01   #78
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
Things we did wrong: we weren't suppose to be in the North Atlantic in winter.

Kevin
Thanks Rovin for sharing your story. I remember the tragedy well and posted early on in this thread in 2007. It was very pertinent to me at the time, as just a few weeks earlier I had ordered a Lagoon 420 with the intention of sailing an Atlantic Circuit with my wife and six kids. In a curious way the tragedy reassured me that what we were planning was safe and we went on to complete a trip that will stay with us all forever.

At the time, I took comfort from the fact that two people had survived being caught in the worst imaginable conditions in one of the worst places to be at the worst time of the year. I concluded that it was the boat that saved your life and I think your story confirms this.

I'm delighted to hear that you and your wife are planning to buy a boat and sail away with your two boys. I guarantee it will be the highlight of your life.
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Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
... I would take my family around the world on a Lagoon 380 anytime or any other comparable cat that size and bigger.
I'm very pleased to hear that your tragic experience has not put you off catamarans or Lagoons and I think you are right on both counts.

What I think is remarkable is that after 3 1/2 days of gale force winds, followed by about 12 hours of storm conditions you still had the physical and mental strength to survived on an upturned boat for eleven hours in such conditions. Some credit must go to the boat for, presumably, keeping you safe, warm, rested and comfortable for so long, before being finally overwhelmed, and then giving you a platform to survive on for a further eleven hours.

Take comfort from the fact that you will never put your boat and your family in the way of such conditions and don't get too hung up about liferafts, concentrate on never having to use them. I can thoroughly recommend an Atlantic Circuit, working with the winds, not against them; leave the Canary Islands in December and the Caribbean in May and you can't go wrong.

Chris
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Old 25-02-2016, 13:26   #79
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
...

Once again my opinion. Take what you like from it. That's the point of this discussion.

Kevin
Rovin Kevin,

Thank you for telling what happened. There are some important lessons in what you have posted.

Thanks,
Dan
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Old 25-02-2016, 13:52   #80
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Rovin, your thoughts on a drogue sound equivalent to how a series drogue might perform in those conditions. Some folks have described it as being linked to a rubber band as it evens out the time dependent wave driven loading.

From your descriptions of the sea state it seems that a parachute would offer higher loadings than the hardware would withstand and would simply tear out or chaff through.

Folks on CF also have discussed deploying a parachute off the bow and rigging to hold the bow at a angle to the waves like 30 degrees.

Any thoughts on a parachute versus a series drogue for the survival situation?
A parachute sea anchor should be deployed from the bow. Appropriate hardware needs to be fitted if you plan to use this option.

The description does sound like a drogue would have possibly prevented the pitchpole, by avoiding the high speeds reached. However, then you'd have seas hitting the cockpit at higher relative speed.

Obviously a sea anchor off the bows would also prevent high speeds. The worry then would be the strength of the vertical forward windows. Being much smaller than the cockpit doors, you'd think they'd be less likely to break.
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Old 25-02-2016, 15:14   #81
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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My brother just sent this to me today. It looks exactly like the system that peeled off the states at high speed and met up with us in the other low pressure system that we were already in.

This is why I called it a wave, it stretched from Main to the Caribbean where he was at the time thinking "this heading right for him!"
And a day later our EPIRBS went off.

Incredible how similar they are. When we were in the Bermuda hospital watching the news of a storm that came through the states and left a wake of destruction, Miami had 44 degree temperature, Denver airport had 100 mph winds and so on.

Almost the same week.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:07   #82
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I come from a power boat background.
I have a hard time thinking that not sticking the pointy end of the boat into the waves when it gets really bad to not be the best option. Of course if you look at the Sportfishing boats I grew up with, they all have wide, flat, low transoms, with big swim platforms, and large sliding glass doors.
I have no Multi experience either, my current thought is if it gets really bad in my mono is to deploy that chute off the bow with 400' of three strand nylon.
I would have thought that if a chute was deployed off the bow in 60+ knots of wind, then the boat would be still be going backwards at 15+ knots. Obviously not good at all and a guarantee to pitch pole over the stern.

A sailing cat is not going to have anything like enough horse power to make any head way into those winds.

May be for a sport fishing boat with a lot of horse power you could apply enough power to limit your backward speed to just a couple of knots or so. The sea anchor could then be used to keep your bow facing the right direction.

I doubt that if going forwards into the wind, even at several knots, in those conditions that you will have any stearage way. I.e. you cannot hold the bow into the wind. This means that the only way to do it is by going backwards and using a sea anchor.

This is all way out and beyond anything I have experienced or know about (or would ever want to come close to experiencing).

My feeling is that in real survival conditions for a mono you would want to be facing downhill and trying to keep your speed slow enough to avoid broaching - by towing a drogue, warps etc. Also the drogue might be necessary for keeping you pointing the right direction.

What is the right approach in a cat (or mono for that matter) which has large "patio" doors which are vulnerable to heavy water from over the stern? Is there anything you can do to prevent them breaking and huge volumes of water getting in?

I am interested in hearing about opinions and options (just in case).
Please keep this interesting and illuminating discussion going.
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:30   #83
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pirate Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Well.. cannot speak for Lagoons.. but I can relate an episode in a Catalac 9..
Straits of Gibraltar.. unexpected F8 that was not announced by Tarifa till it had been blowing for 1/2hr..
We were caught S of Trafalgar.. on the nose with short steep sea's.. we'd climb one wave and bury our nose in the next which would break and sweep over the boat.. only way to control the boat was both engines (Beta 10's) and using them to keep her head to wind.. trying a turn would have be a terminal manoeuvre..
4hrs of this was enough to crack the underside from hull to hull.. when this was discovered the water was already shin deep on my 4ft 10" crew in each hull..
The only way to make progress toward the safety of a harbour 6nm to port was crab sideways till we reached slightly calmer waters and the tide turned which reduced the sea's a bit..
We made it in but if we'd been 10nm further out I reckon the Lifeboat standing by would have ended up having to take us off.. the Cat would have sunk.
The owner refused to believe that this could happen to his 'Floating Tank'.. till he saw the photo's..
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Old 25-02-2016, 23:16   #84
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
I would have thought that if a chute was deployed off the bow in 60+ knots of wind, then the boat would be still be going backwards at 15+ knots.
I would think going backwards wouldn't be good for the rudder. I believe this is just one of the drogue vs sea anchor arguments. I defer to sailors that have actually "been there done that" and know what they're talking about.

Thank you Rovin for sharing with us.
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Old 25-02-2016, 23:47   #85
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
I would have thought that if a chute was deployed off the bow in 60+ knots of wind, then the boat would be still be going backwards at 15+ knots. Obviously not good at all and a guarantee to pitch pole over the stern.
No personal experience to bring to bear on this statement, but it surely goes against what the vendors of para-anchors say. And to me it is obvious that a para-anchor being dragged through the water at anything even approaching 15+ knots would be immediately reduced to rags. Their whole point is to provide enough drag to effectively stop the vessel, and many users, especially sailing cats, have reported this to be the case.

I remember speaking with the owners of Ramtha, one of the cats abandoned in the Queens birthday storm in '94. IIRC they reported that the chute had kept them pretty well under control, but on one massive surge they moved backwards enough to damage the steering, and when the opportunity to abandon came, they took it. The boat survived on its own and was recovered, 'chute intact. there is no way to compare their events with Kevin's, but both were survival storm intensities.

Jim
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Old 26-02-2016, 02:49   #86
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Thank you Rovin for sharing your real world experiences. Must be tough to re-live them but they may help someone else make the right decision at some point. Especialy choosing when to sail.
Glad that you are still planning to sail a cat away with your family and wish you every succes with it
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Old 26-02-2016, 04:19   #87
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Kevin.

Thanks for sharing your harrowing story, and many of the details of those terrible events.

I hope you stick around the Forum, and share some happier stories as you prepare to (& do) set sail on your next (less dramatic) adventure.
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Old 26-02-2016, 06:23   #88
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I have no Multi experience either, my current thought is if it gets really bad in my mono is to deploy that chute off the bow with 400' of three strand nylon.
My concern on this and to be upfront I have 0 experience with this. But my thought is, in even conditions half as bad as what Rovin experienced, how would you get 400' of line and a heavy parachute rigged up properly and deployed off the bow? Even jack lined in you are asking for a beating and the mechanism for injury is very high.

Now not arguing merit of which is better in a big sea state as I don't want to de-rail this thread. Just strictly talking ease and safety of deployment, a series drogue seems much faster and safer. It is pre rigged on the transom before doing a crossing and you can deploy it in seconds. See link below


Jordan Series Drogue - Launching and Retrieval

just my $.02, YMMV
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Old 26-02-2016, 06:46   #89
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pirate Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

My experience with drogues and parachutes is limited to experiments on my boat in the '80's..
I was well aware of what the N Atlantic was capable of having been on an RN frigate during the Cod Wars.. F12's and over with huge sea's.
Decided that I was better off without.. and its worked.. so far..
However that was Mono's.. Cats are something else and having over the last few years been moving a few cats 1000's of miles I have more experience with them in heavy weather..
I've run before with a rag on the forestay and hove to a couple of times however I have yet to encounter sea's like 'Roverin' did in his capsize.. but they were hell in a mono..
I honestly do not think that the cats are built strongly enough at the relevant points to bear the loads.. and to be honest the act of exposing the stern to those forces is asking for trouble.. a boats strongest point is the bow.. and leaving ones steerage and power to the mercy of the sea and the debris it throws at one (Oil drums, tree trunks, freezers, etc) for some reason makes me very twitchy.. no one remember the brand new MK1 cat that was abandoned because the got 'Stopped by a brick wall' which wrecked their rudders and they ended up abandoning.. apparently a lesser storm as well.
Guess I won't Really Know until I'm in the washing machine like him..
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Old 26-02-2016, 06:55   #90
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

[QUOTE=Rovin;2055422]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
...
Things we did wrong: we weren't suppose to be in the North Atlantic in winter.
...
I guess that sums it up rather well. No small sailing boat should be there at that time and a breaking 12 m wave, or even smaller, will have unforeseen dangerous effects, monohulls or multihulls alike.
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