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Old 25-02-2016, 02:28   #61
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

A truly frightening story, so thank you for reliving it in the telling. Must not be all that much fun for you and your efforts are appreciated.

On a technical note, there has been a recent thread about the vulnerability of the glass doors in catamarans. Some voiced the opinion that there were no known instances of their being breached. These were. I suspect that the paucity of stories like this lies in the poor chances of survival in such conditions. I reckon that such conditions lead to the possibility of being overwhelmed no matter what sort of small boat one is in, so please do not take these comments as cat bashing.

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Old 25-02-2016, 02:49   #62
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
A truly frightening story, so thank you for reliving it in the telling. Must not be all that much fun for you and your efforts are appreciated.

On a technical note, there has been a recent thread about the vulnerability of the glass doors in catamarans. Some voiced the opinion that there were no known instances of their being breached. These were. I suspect that the paucity of stories like this lies in the poor chances of survival in such conditions. I reckon that such conditions lead to the possibility of being overwhelmed no matter what sort of small boat one is in, so please do not take these comments as cat bashing.

Jim
no need for cat mono thing again. I am sure everyone makes proper research and chooses what suits most. For some this is cat. Just accept it and move on.
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Old 25-02-2016, 03:11   #63
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Some more background on the delivery company in question

https://theamuse.wordpress.com/2012/...us-conditions/

Youtube link to the BBC documentary



It's in three parts.
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Old 25-02-2016, 03:30   #64
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

My condolences to you for loosing a friend to the sea.
You are one of the few who has experienced and survived this sort of weather so I really appreciate that you are coming back to the forum to share for us to learn from it

[QUOTE=Rovin;2055422]
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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
When it came to us the stern of the boat fell into the hole that was in front of it and I couldn't if I tried to see the top, my guess was 40+. Out the salon doors all I saw was a wall of water with white streaks going up and the the whole back of the boat exploded. We heeled within just a few degrees of going over then. Ole flew from the galley down the port stairs and hit his head on the wall down below, Steve held onto the starboard side of the cabin, the salon doors blew open and about 300-350 gallons of water poured in the salon.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? I suppose the cockpit was filled with water after that wave, so thats a few tons. Did the structure of the boat take this impact OK?
I suppose the engine compartments had been filled to some degree? Were the engines still operational?
Have the saloon doors really exploded (that is broken plexiglass) ? Have you been able to repair this somehow or how have you tackled the issue water entering the boat?
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Old 25-02-2016, 03:48   #65
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by salticrak View Post
Who knows? I wonder if she would have stood up to that kind of beating. Slower speed may result in heavier impact from the hundreds of tonnes of water crashing down on the boat.
I agree it is difficult to say. It remains so, even with this Rovin's generous and I'm sure, difficult input. (Thank you).

Did the vessel broach, or did it pitch pole?
I assume it was under bare poles. Possibly/probably without a drogue or chute option.
Whilst running, the failure to control speed must have been a factor. Probably the major factor (aside from being in the wrong place at the wrong time).
Being beaten up and pooped from the stern is obviously significant, but being tossed forward and downward, accelerating into the deep trough and/or into the steepening back of the the wave before is the catastrophic issue here, I suspect.
There was prior warning of the risk of the boat becoming overwhelmed. At that time either makeshift warps (as many as available to slow the boat), or drogue if available, would have been the best option (if no chute was available).
As has been said before by those significantly more expert than I, speed is the enemy, as kinetic energy increases exponentially with it. Better to be pooped than broached.....but balancing speed reduces the risk of both.
The event sounds frightening and was clearly devastatingly tragic. The only good that can come from this is better understanding and education.
Thanks again for sharing Rovin.
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Old 25-02-2016, 04:13   #66
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Some more background on the delivery company in question

https://theamuse.wordpress.com/2012/...us-conditions/

Youtube link to the BBC documentary



It's in three parts.
here found couple of answers.

Unbelievable this kind of employer behaviour is tolerated in what people like calling modern democracy. Looks to me like modern fascism.

was boat actively driven ? These walls, as I gather, are often not wide and one can manoeuvre between them - during day - at least in theory.
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Old 25-02-2016, 06:57   #67
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
Speaking only for myself:
In the described situation, I would prefer to stay/be outside. Getting inside, even if possible, would be highly frightening and claustrophobic. I would be afraid of the boat sinking with me inside, as it was partially full of water.

Another issue - there is no mention of a liferaft in the posts. I wonder did they have one and if they did why wasn't it deployed.
Then there is mention of getting back onboard of the empty life jacket of the skipper. I wonder how this happened, but perhaps he did not have or use crotch straps to keep the life jacket in place.

It is a horrible story and tragedy but at least may serve as a safety lesson for us at present.


Life raft - we did not have it stored in the slot in the stern of the boat where lagoon has made a space for it. The reason for this was we had room in the cockpit underneath the lifting seat to the right as you exited the salon.
Here is one of my biggest issues.
When we went over it was in the cockpit under the seat, absolutely unable to get to in our situation. I don't I can describe how much water was in the boat when it was upside down. It was like being in a washing machine up to your shoulders with everything floating around with hardly any light. The cockpit was an air pocket that Ole was trapped in and was on the other side of the glass doors. I was personally unable to open the doors because of the water level difference between inside and out. I tried very hard but was unable as I watched him get beaten three different way by the cockpit floor and and the sides. Steve grabbed me and said "I'll get him you grab the ditch bag and get outside". I did. Steve was the captain, Ole was the 1st mate and I was the deckhand.

My problem with the life raft location on cats is at the top of my list of issues.
Yes we didn't have it the "proper place" but I know for absolute sure if we had it where lagoon and other cats have them stored in that slot in the stern the would have been no way to access it anyway. As I have said before the weight of the engines pulled the stern very far into the water, MAYBE in calm conditions you could have pulled the canister out to have it useful but in constant 45' breaking waves it was a laughable thought. And I thought about it for hours trying to think of a way to get to that life raft of it was back there. I had 11 1/2 hours to think about our situation, felt like an eternity.

I am now in the market for a cat to take my family cruising for an extended period of time and this is one of my highest concerns. The placement of the life raft. In a roll over, impossible to get to because if you rolled over it was because of sea state at least on the heavy lagoons.

Another thought on this, what happens if you strike an underwater object (container) and hit it hard enough at night and one of the hulls flooded in a sea state? My confidence in being able to pull that out is questionable. If you happen to strike both hulls both flood them in my experience I have no confidence at all that you could pull it out in a manner before that area was under water.
My thought on this is to have a well thought out plan of how to get it out. My thought process would be to rapidly cut away the dingy tie it to the boat and get that life raft and have both. Think about trying to get the life raft while the dingy is hanging there.
(My opinion)
You have to remember as most people know these situations never happen in calm harbor-like conditions, plan accordingly.

As for Steve and his life jacket.

This is the sad part. Ole was driving - had his Henry Loyd gear on. Me - I knew that when the sun went down we were finished there was no way that we were going to be able to steer in out of the breakers chasing us down. So I put on ALL of my warm weather gear. 2-3 pairs of base layers, 3 layers of fleece mid layer, Patagonia bibs and the jacket that saved my life, Arcterix Stingray jacket. I had all this on at the same time. Steve and just come off driving for hours and went down to his cabin to get some rest as I did the same. The difference was that I put all my stuff on, he took his foulies off and never found them again in the turmoil of the washing machine that was now the inside of the boat.

Because of this he died of hyperthermia when we were outside the boat. He had one the best life jackets that money could buy.
Climbing harness/life jacket. Cinch crotch straps for both legs and a spray hood. But he came out of the hull with now foulies and that was what killed him. If you know anything about hyperthermia as you get colder you feel warmer and you try to shed clothes in your delirium and he did. It the black of the night he must have slowly undid his straps and jacket so when I was hooked into him with my lifeline the waves successfully worked him out of his life jacket.
Know that he had already passed by about an hour and I was just trying to hold onto his body to bring something back for his family but the relentless violence of the waves had other plans.

Just for stating facts:

We capsized at 5:20 pm (just as the sun was fading)
The last numbers we saw were surfing down the waves under bare poles at 23kts
Last gust was 63kts, I think consistent was around 55kts
The air was in the low 60's and water temp the same
The first C-130 showed up around 11:30pm, the exact same time we confirmed that Steve had succumbed to hyperthermia
Jayhawk Coast Guard showed up around 3:45 am, pulled me out at 4:30 am.
1 1/2 flight to Bermuda


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Old 25-02-2016, 07:13   #68
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Sounds like a drogue or sea anchor would have been useful in the conditions?

Another point I have gone over and over. We were not prepared as one should be crossing an ocean. (Refer to BBC Inside Out episode)

BUT if we had one what would have changed?

I believe we would have had stayed upright as certain as I could be. But we didn't have one. If we had one I think we would have stayed upright but then another major issue would have been our next problem. The waves that would have with broken over our stern would have done such damage that I don't believe (I know that those salon doors would have blown apart/in.
In the first almost capsize the doors blew open but not off the tracks, I think that was just luck. But our starboard engine hatch blew open which I raced outside to close as not to flood the engine compartment.

Would the cleats have held, not sure. If we ran the lines of the drogue through the cleats the to winches, maybe. Would have helped.

Why didn't we through anything overboard?? I don't know. I was new to ocean crossings and it wasn't in my play book.
Looking back I would have tied everything I could find and made a warp from each stern this MAY HAVE changed the outcome.
It may have been a better then a drogue because it might have lessened the force of the braking waves as it would not have slowed us down as much.

Once again my opinion. Take what you like from it. That's the point of this discussion.

Kevin


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Old 25-02-2016, 07:16   #69
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
I agree it is difficult to say. It remains so, even with this Rovin's generous and I'm sure, difficult input. (Thank you).



Did the vessel broach, or did it pitch pole?

I assume it was under bare poles. Possibly/probably without a drogue or chute option.

Whilst running, the failure to control speed must have been a factor. Probably the major factor (aside from being in the wrong place at the wrong time).

Being beaten up and pooped from the stern is obviously significant, but being tossed forward and downward, accelerating into the deep trough and/or into the steepening back of the the wave before is the catastrophic issue here, I suspect.

There was prior warning of the risk of the boat becoming overwhelmed. At that time either makeshift warps (as many as available to slow the boat), or drogue if available, would have been the best option (if no chute was available).

As has been said before by those significantly more expert than I, speed is the enemy, as kinetic energy increases exponentially with it. Better to be pooped than broached.....but balancing speed reduces the risk of both.

The event sounds frightening and was clearly devastatingly tragic. The only good that can come from this is better understanding and education.

Thanks again for sharing Rovin.

Agreed on all points.

Pitch pole

Kevin


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Old 25-02-2016, 07:26   #70
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

[QUOTE=rabbi;2055525]My condolences to you for loosing a friend to the sea.

You are one of the few who has experienced and survived this sort of weather so I really appreciate that you are coming back to the forum to share for us to learn from it



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovin View Post



Could you elaborate on this a bit? I suppose the cockpit was filled with water after that wave, so thats a few tons. Did the structure of the boat take this impact OK?

I suppose the engine compartments had been filled to some degree? Were the engines still operational?

Have the saloon doors really exploded (that is broken plexiglass) ? Have you been able to repair this somehow or how have you tackled the issue water entering the boat?

Well here are some positives that I have taken away from this.

We left LaSable' Delone (sp) west coast France it was a brand new boat. We had horrific conditions coming out of the Bay of Biscay and around Cape Finistere (sp) Portugal. That little Lagoon took a beating we had green water coming over the helm and the vertices Windows held. I thought they would go but no.
The structure seemed to have no problems either.

The doors held that time but would have failed eventually if we kept taking impacts like that, no. I don't think anything would have.
If we're had warps to slow our speed the I'm sure the next eventual problem would have been the doors failing.
Be able to fix?? I don't see how. And I have thought this through for years.


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Old 25-02-2016, 07:33   #71
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

To elaborate a little on the previous post, I would take my family around the world on a Lagoon 380 anytime or any other comparable cat that size and bigger.

I'm actually looking to that as we discuss this. Looking for a Lagoon 400 or bigger, FP and so on. Just a preference for cruising with family in tropics.

Main moral of the story is don't put these boats where they are not supposed to be. That's the true tragedy of this, we shouldn't have been there.

Kevin


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Old 25-02-2016, 07:46   #72
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pirate Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

What a lot of folks do not realise about the N Atlantic it seems is the simple fact that N of Bermuda the fronts pass quickly.. Gale from the NW for hours.. then a lull for 6-8hrs and back it roars from the North.. 24-36hrs later.. lull for a while then it comes screaming back from the NE...
Now during each phase its creating huge sea's as a result of the cross currents resulting from the mix of warm and cold water mixing.. each phase making the sea's potentially more lethal.
The type of wave that 'Got Them' is seen fairly regularly in these waters.. sometimes referred to as a rogue wave.. basically its the result of 3 sea's meeting and the combined energy pushes then above the surrounding 'Norm'.. they surge up.. usually on the quarter and avoiding them is often more by luck than judgement.. doubt a drogue would have helped as speed is the thing that gets one away.. tho' ironically at the same time its what can also lead to this.
I've had one of these 'events' in that area.. not as dramatic for sure.. but it was as if my Hunter had hit a brick wall.. took it on the bow thank goodness so only had a punched out fore bulked and a slightly shifted main bulkhead.
Turned and ran back for Beaufort and repairs.
Regarding Reliance YS.. I would NOT ever work for a company.. no way.. and even if I did and I was told to take routes against my better judgement I'd give them the finger..
Once I take command of a boat I am god.. no one tells me how or when to sail.. even the customer.
All they are entitled to is my collecting the vessel from a named port on a set date and transporting it to another named port.. in good order.
Customer does not like my terms.. there's plenty other skippers out there want their foot on the 1st rung.. go hire one of them.. BYE..!!
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Old 25-02-2016, 08:01   #73
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Rovin, your thoughts on a drogue sound equivalent to how a series drogue might perform in those conditions. Some folks have described it as being linked to a rubber band as it evens out the time dependent wave driven loading.

From your descriptions of the sea state it seems that a parachute would offer higher loadings than the hardware would withstand and would simply tear out or chaff through.

Folks on CF also have discussed deploying a parachute off the bow and rigging to hold the bow at a angle to the waves like 30 degrees.

Any thoughts on a parachute versus a series drogue for the survival situation?
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Old 25-02-2016, 08:30   #74
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Rovin, your thoughts on a drogue sound equivalent to how a series drogue might perform in those conditions. Some folks have described it as being linked to a rubber band as it evens out the time dependent wave driven loading.

From your descriptions of the sea state it seems that a parachute would offer higher loadings than the hardware would withstand and would simply tear out or chaff through.

Folks on CF also have discussed deploying a parachute off the bow and rigging to hold the bow at a angle to the waves like 30 degrees.

Any thoughts on a parachute versus a series drogue for the survival situation?

I would think the series drogue would have worked better then a parachute. We needed to be slowed down by some speed not all. I think if we kept a speed of 10kts or more then we might have mitigated the power of the falling walls behind us somewhat but I can't say for sure. I would think that would be better then nothing.

As for the parachute off of the bow at 30 degrees I like this idea but for these particular conditions again I think the power of the 45' breaking waves would have made mince meat of the vertical Windows eventually. They were extremely steep. There is a post before about this area and it's waves and that was a very recognizable description of what I saw that day.

But for other conditions I think this is an option.


Unfortunately we just didn't have a lot of options if any.


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Old 25-02-2016, 08:39   #75
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Who knows? I wonder if she would have stood up to that kind of beating. Slower speed may result in heavier impact from the hundreds of tonnes of water crashing down on the boat.
I remember a French professional race sailor describing trying that on similar conditions (because he had heard a lot about cruisers doing it) to quickly give up due to the tons of water that come crashing on the cockpit from the stern, making sailing even more dangerous.
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