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Old 23-02-2016, 07:40   #46
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Thank You for your post Rovin and I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

I would like to ask about the onset of the weather conditions. Basically how long had the weather and the waves been that bad? Did it build slowly over a day or two or are we talking about a few hours? At what point and why did you decide to put on survival suits and so on?
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Old 23-02-2016, 23:04   #47
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
If sea's were 30ft as reported I think that would have been a recipe for dying fast.. I've been banged on the head by a hull while diving a fouled prop in a 'Calm' sea with swell.. and that stunned me.
how is this any worse than being outside and banging outside hulls, rudders, saildrive legs, fins and propellers ? Forward lagoon rooms are relatively small and one can hold better than outside, i guess. But where would fresh air come from if hatches underwater, I wonder ....


not an easy one to resolve in an emergency.
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Old 24-02-2016, 02:41   #48
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
how is this any worse than being outside and banging outside hulls, rudders, saildrive legs, fins and propellers ? Forward lagoon rooms are relatively small and one can hold better than outside, i guess. But where would fresh air come from if hatches underwater, I wonder ....


not an easy one to resolve in an emergency.
Speaking only for myself:
In the described situation, I would prefer to stay/be outside. Getting inside, even if possible, would be highly frightening and claustrophobic. I would be afraid of the boat sinking with me inside, as it was partially full of water.

Another issue - there is no mention of a liferaft in the posts. I wonder did they have one and if they did why wasn't it deployed.
Then there is mention of getting back onboard of the empty life jacket of the skipper. I wonder how this happened, but perhaps he did not have or use crotch straps to keep the life jacket in place.

It is a horrible story and tragedy but at least may serve as a safety lesson for us at present.
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Old 24-02-2016, 03:02   #49
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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
how is this any worse than being outside and banging outside hulls, rudders, saildrive legs, fins and propellers ? Forward lagoon rooms are relatively small and one can hold better than outside, i guess. But where would fresh air come from if hatches underwater, I wonder ....


not an easy one to resolve in an emergency.
I suggest you try diving on your prop in a slight sea.. then imagine diving on the submerged stern to swim between the hard bimini and the cockpit deck.. through the door and into the boat.. fully dressed.
Wonderful things can be achieved by Hollywood stars..
Us mere mortals are less fortunate..
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Old 24-02-2016, 03:09   #50
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

there is good reason to be afraid. this is lagoon 420 i believe, flipped on mooring in hamilton island cyclone.

Not confidence filling flotation.
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Old 24-02-2016, 03:20   #51
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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I suggest you try diving on your prop in a slight sea.. then imagine diving on the submerged stern to swim between the hard bimini and the cockpit deck.. through the door and into the boat.. fully dressed.
Wonderful things can be achieved by Hollywood stars..
Us mere mortals are less fortunate..
ok, you win !

So what should be preparations for this type of event except assuming will never happen ?
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Old 24-02-2016, 03:46   #52
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pirate Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
ok, you win !

So what should be preparations for this type of event except assuming will never happen ?
By the sound of it maybe the manufacturers of cats should build in an under platform compartment for an emergency raft in case of a flip in severe conditions that can be easily accessed by the crew.
For example just below the salon windows fwd are two huge lockers with the water tanks and space for fenders etc..
Can't be all that hard to raise the floor and create a compartment beneath with a drop pop hatch and a valise raft inside.. in fact they do not even have to raise the floor.. just fit a hatch.
Amusingly many stow their rafts in some silly places..
Something that eliminates the need to dive the boat to try to survive.
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Old 24-02-2016, 04:24   #53
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Rovin, thanks for sharing.

I can now imagine the situation after flip much clearer.
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Old 24-02-2016, 21:55   #54
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Thank You for your post Rovin and I am sorry for the loss of your friend.



I would like to ask about the onset of the weather conditions. Basically how long had the weather and the waves been that bad? Did it build slowly over a day or two or are we talking about a few hours? At what point and why did you decide to put on survival suits and so on?
Please remember there is larger story that surrounds this accident not just that the we flipped a lagoon 380 off of Bermuda. That IS a whole other story that I may touch on later but I would like to get information go over what happened, what we did wrong and what we did right. I have gone over this for years and there are things that seem like they would happen some way but happened another so here we go.

We were in a strong low pressure system of 30-35kts consistent winds sailing towards Bermuda for 3 1/2 days, over that time the waves built to 30' rollers. I have to say that the lagoon handled fair in these conditions and never felt like "we were in for it at any moment" but rather we sailed up the hillside, sat on top, then sailed down the other side. This went on from late early Friday through Monday.

We knew that there was an unusually fast approaching low pressure wave that came off the states at 40kts traveling.
It had extended all down the east coast and with our weather reports we knew it was going to catch up with the system we were already in. And catch up it did.

Monday morning I came up from my cabin with Steve saying "well you wanted to see some big waves well here ya go."
Bands of clouds would pass over pick up wind speed drop torrential rain then the sun would come out. The problem was that with each successive "cloud band" for a lack of a better meteorological term, the winds would pick up and would not let off after the band would pass over. So the winds went from 30-35 consistent to 35-40, 40-45 and so on. This went on for for morning to early afternoon.
We had already the day before turned and were running but we were becoming blatantly overwhelmed. Monday at 12:05 I was sitting in the salon on the settee looking back over our starboard quarter watching the waves starting to break with more and more frequency, volume and height. I was trying to not come to the inevitable realization that we were not going to make it out of this.
Just then I watched in silence as this wave rearing up over the others coming from the starboard quarter then would duck down and come up closer then before.
When it came to us the stern of the boat fell into the hole that was in front of it and I couldn't if I tried to see the top, my guess was 40+. Out the salon doors all I saw was a wall of water with white streaks going up and the the whole back of the boat exploded. We heeled within just a few degrees of going over then. Ole flew from the galley down the port stairs and hit his head on the wall down below, Steve held onto the starboard side of the cabin, the salon doors blew open and about 300-350 gallons of water poured in the salon.

We came up on our side almost over then came down.

We almost went over then. 5 hours later we did.

We did not have survival suites, we weren't suppose to be there in the first place. I am skier and brought all of my technical mountain gear which served me well.

Things we did wrong: we weren't suppose to be in the North Atlantic in winter.

If you can find "BBC Inside Out news show from the UK about Reliance Yacht Management" you will get a better idea of why we were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Old 24-02-2016, 22:00   #55
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

I don't know how to put the specific question in my reply so it would be easier to answer the questions if some could help with that it would be much appreciated.

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Old 24-02-2016, 22:08   #56
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
[Yacht delivery firm accused of negligence
16 January 2012
From the section England
Nick Irving
Image caption
Nick Irving denies putting pressure on skippers
A British yacht delivery company has been accused of negligence, resulting in the deaths of five sailors.
Family and survivors claim Nick Irving, boss of Farnborough-based Reliance Yacht Management, pressured skippers to sail into bad weather against their better judgment, with the loss of three boats.
In a special investigation, BBC Inside Out South has discovered Reliance ignored warnings about likely sea conditions and strong winds.
Reliance, based in Farnborough, Hampshire, delivers yachts across the world for both private and commercial clients.
Successful lawsuit
Skippers are contracted to carry out the deliveries on behalf of Reliance.
ADVERTISEMENT

Crew are often unpaid, but use the delivery as an opportunity to gain experience and build up their sea miles.
John Anstess, from Plymouth, Devon, and his crew, Dave Rodman and Richard Beckman, died in December 2006 when the 44ft (13.4m) catamaran Catshot was wrecked in a huge storm off the north west coast of America.
Emails sent by Reliance are alleged to have put pressure on Mr Anstess.
He had suggested over-wintering the boat in San Diego, California or taking an alternative, safer route.
But the BBC has evidence his protests were dismissed.
John Anstess
Image caption
John Anstess's request to take a safer route was dismissed
Only two weeks before Catshot was lost, Mr Irving sent an email telling Mr Anstess he was "making too much" of the weather and wrote that the "client will go ballistic" if he took a route via Hawaii.
Wendy Wood, sister of John Anstess, successfully sued Reliance for negligence.
The judgment was damning. It concluded the pressure from Reliance on Mr Anstess directly caused the loss of skipper and crew.
Only two months after the loss of Catshot, another Reliance delivery vessel was sailing across the Atlantic towards Miami, Florida, in what should have been an easy passage at that time of year.
Crew member Kevin Klinges said the instructions from Reliance made it quite clear to skipper Steve Hobley, from Newton Abbot, Devon, that if he failed to take a diversion, he would not work for the company again.
The 38ft (11.5m) catamaran was overwhelmed by 45ft (13.8m) waves and capsized. Mr Hobley died from hypothermia.
Crew member Kevin Klinges, from Idaho, USA, and Ollie Templeman, from Poole, Dorset, were rescued by a US Coastguard helicopter after an 11-hour ordeal.
Yacht skippered by Alasdair Crawford
Image caption
Alasdair Crawford died after the boat he was on got caught in storms in the Bay of Biscay
Mr Hobley's daughter, Fran Bridle, said: "Having nothing back of Dad leaves a wound.
"It's like someone walks out of your life when you are in mid-conversation. It's the most awful thing."
These two tragedies were preceded by the loss of another Reliance boat in the Bay of Biscay in December 2003. Skipper Alasdair Crawford died after the 49ft (15m) yacht was rolled in a Force 10 storm.
The BBC has seen evidence which shows that Mr Irving embellished a skipper's CV to impress boat owners and insurance companies. About 10,000 miles (16,100km) were added, which almost trebled the skipper's seagoing experience.
The Maritime and Coastguard Agency asked the Crown Prosecution Service whether criminal proceedings could follow from the death of John Anstess. But because Catshot was foreign registered, neither organisation was able to act.
Mr Irving denies putting pressure on skippers. He said his skippers were highly professional and were given 24-hour support.
He said: "The business has been operating for over 25 years and, over that time, we have moved thousands of yachts safely to all parts of the world."
Mr Irving refused to give the BBC an interview and failed to answer specific questions about the emails.
Yacht delivery firm accused of negligence - BBC News
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Old 24-02-2016, 22:45   #57
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
I don't know how to put the specific question in my reply so it would be easier to answer the questions if some could help with that it would be much appreciated.

Kevin


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To address a specific post? Instead of using the post reply button, use the quote button in the post you want to refer to.

This will start a reply box with the post included.


Thank you for sharing your experiences with the forum. It can't be easy for you but is much appreciated.
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Old 24-02-2016, 22:48   #58
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Sounds like a drogue or sea anchor would have been useful in the conditions?
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Old 24-02-2016, 22:59   #59
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

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Sounds like a drogue or sea anchor would have been useful in the conditions?
Who knows? I wonder if she would have stood up to that kind of beating. Slower speed may result in heavier impact from the hundreds of tonnes of water crashing down on the boat.
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Old 25-02-2016, 00:34   #60
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Re: Lagoon 440 Tragedy

Open second session, press reply ad copy string within reply to you combined reply.

then write answer.

Safer is open word, use same logic and when finished, paste in your answer. Advantage, you can save word doc until you done.

How did you manage not to get trashed against hulls, and appendages ? You had to go thru night in extreme conditions...
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