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Old 29-02-2016, 08:35   #136
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

Yeah - Liferafts - all fine and dandy but if your yacht (cat tri or mono) sinks due to a set of major storm conditions, I wish you luck in a little rubber ducky...Read the '79 Fastnet Disaster report's comments on liferafts. I doubt if they have been substantially strengthened.

They are, however, Jolly Useful if you have to get off the boat in calmer weather because of, say, fire...

At the end of the day its a bit like building a Nuclear Bomb Shelter...all bets are off in the event of a direct hit!
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Old 29-02-2016, 09:35   #137
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

The suggestion was that an auto-inflating masthead airbag might prevent the masthead from burying - and thereby possibly save the mast from breaking. Certainly unpredictable given the variables, granted.

The chance of recovering from an inversion without outside help might be slightly more predictable at roughly zero.

A cursory google since my last post found smaller sport cats trying different systems over many years, apparently some successfully.

Economically speaking though... crew are ten-a-penny or free and big cats are properly insured so it's a solution without a problem, right?

Why mess about repairing a stinky one when insurance will buy you a new one? Better if it sinks?

Not saying, just asking
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Old 29-02-2016, 09:54   #138
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

Unclemack,
In probably 10 threads so far the subject of putting a float on the mast of a cruising catamaran has been suggested. Unless you have really thought about it, it might seem possible. But it isn't - period - and I'm not saying, asking, or anything - it's a fact. The pressure from waves on your stick would bust it in seconds, not minutes. Don't confuse beach cats with cruising cats. I've owned lot's of beach cat's, used to wipe out for fun, it's just not the same with cruisers.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:26   #139
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

ref. post 132 <<Years ago, long before airbags in cars were around, Prout (I think) experimented with floats at the masthead. Guessing weight, windage, public perception and just plain ugliness killed the idea.>>

I have sailed on Iroquois catamarans from Sail Craft (UK) with a float at the masthead, and some neophyte were very interested in our 'smart radar'.

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Old 29-02-2016, 11:30   #140
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

10 threads? Haven't looked, no point.
An intelligent person with something resembling a reasoned argument or a jot of evidence to offer - does exactly that.

"Unless you have really thought about it, it might seem possible. But it isn't - period - and I'm not saying, asking, or anything - it's a fact"

Not exactly as conclusive a "fact" as you may have hoped - not only is it presumptuous bluster - it's also compelling evidence that the writer has nothing substantial to offer.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:33   #141
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delafontaine View Post
ref. post 132 <<Years ago, long before airbags in cars were around, Prout (I think) experimented with floats at the masthead. Guessing weight, windage, public perception and just plain ugliness killed the idea.>>

I have sailed on Iroquois catamarans from Sail Craft (UK) with a float at the masthead, and some neophyte were very interested in our 'smart radar'.

Sincere apologies, no offence meant.
I stand corrected
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:45   #142
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
That's funny Boatman



I didn't ask Roven before but will now,



Did the mast break when the boat turtled?



I'm guessing most would in storm situations so any conversations about righting a cat afterwards is fruitless. Besides, by the time you get your crap together the calverley will have saved you.



This was an unfortunate but avoidable accident. Worrying about an inversion is a pretty big waste of time IMO. There are at least 10 more likely problems that will put you in danger before an inversion.

To answer about the mast, no it did not break. We had no sails up at this point or for the 5-6 hours before as we we running. So the stress on the rigging wasn't, I guess, enough to break it off at that point or the whole time that we were hanging on to the dolphin strike standing on the trampoline.

In my opinion the point here is to NOT capsize by means of weather routing and heavy weather techniques for cats. As I have stated before we could have avoided the situation by not being there. As for my feeling of the ease of a cruising catamaran capsizing I feel pretty confident that it wouldn't happen under say more normal storm conditions.
Now this excludes performance cats...Gunboat, Tag and so forth. As these cats can fly a hull and are inherently lighter. I have no knowledge of their ability to stay upright so I will stay away from that.

But for boats like Lagoon, FP, Leopards and other family cruisers wind alone I doubt would push over these cats. I believe the rigging will rip down and then you have a whole other mess of problems to deal with and just as life threatening. It was waves that got us and the type of waves.







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Old 02-03-2016, 06:55   #143
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

I guess what I would like to do is inform people about what happened and how I think I survived. So others can make their own plan and maybe have an idea of what they are facing in reality. Because to be honest I STILL can't believe what I saw and experienced that night and the fact that I am sitting here with a wife and two beautiful boys.

One of the most important things was I absolutely knew that we were not getting out there that night. So I made the decision to say "well your a dead man so let's see if we can give myself a fighting chance just for the hell of it." I thought about what I was going to face WHEN the boat WAS going to capsize.

1. Hypothermia
2. Drowning
3. Being beaten to a pulp by the waves (so injury)
3. Time (giving myself enough of it for someone to come get us)

I had a meter in my head that started at % 80 chance of survival before we went over. - Have to have hope even if it's blind.

We flipped the boat it immediately filled with water and debris, it was waist high in seconds.
Slugged through the water to get to the salon which was now in the opposite direction. (Massive disorientation)
Steve ordered me to grab the ditch bag and go out the escape hatch. I did.
I clipped on the dry/ditch bag to my life jacket at the waist. It had already inflated by now. Opened the hatch saw the D ring to my left recognized what it was for and climbed out.
As soon as I climbed out I was in the fury of the waves, with me being clipped onto the boat I was dragged back and forth under water was the waves broke and receded on the overturned hull for at least a minute maybe more. This time was brutal. I was underwater being thrown back and forth like being caught in the surf but being held to a point and then being attached at the waist. I felt that I was going to break in half the wrong way at the waist. As soon as I got a second to unclip I did on rode the next surge to the tramp where I grabbed on with my fingers for dear life. Hoping that I was not washed passed that point. Because if I did miss that point I was done for. Float away by myself. If I was a foot away from the boat I might was well been a mile. I gathered my life line got to the carabiner and almost fainted when I saw that it was bent WIDE open from the force I just experienced from the surge.
And yes my life line was the three clip version from a marine store, same as the life jacket. No I don't remember which kind. But to say that was lost a lot of hope when I saw that would be a massive understatement.

Survival meter now at less then %50

I pulled out the EPIRB and was Immediately dismayed about the tiny little line that was wrapped around it. I did my best to secure it to the boat/tramp. And then myself to the tramp lying face down in the water with waves breaking over me. I tied my life line as the clip was useless.

Steve and Ole came out a few minutes later, rode the surge to where I was and we all just went quiet. Remember there are still 50kt winds and 35-45 seas so we went quiet the situation was deafening.

After what I think was 20-30 minutes I realized that was enough time for my panic session and that I was losing massive body heat by laying down holding on to the tramp. So I looked around for an alternative and saw the dolphin strike. Crawled over to it stood up and held onto it for the next 11 1/2 hours.

Steve in the confusion of the capsize never found his outer shell OR his life line to his life jacket. Lesson here keep them together at all times. (I know this seems a given but it wasn't here).
I saw this and knew if I didn't do something about it here would surely be lost overboard before anything else. So I tied the end of my line to the tramp then clipped him in to the middle clip to his and the other end to mine. So I was in an awkward bent over position holding on to him for the next 6 hours until he finally slipped out of his life jacket.

Reason for living I believe #1 - we had 2 EBIRP's. The main boat one and Ole had a new (at that time) personal EBIRB.

The one I had tied on broke free within 5 minutes and drifted away. Survival meter less the %30 now.

Ole's was held onto his life jacket by a cable. A cable. As an EPIRB should be. His EPIRB also had a feature that I will be FOREVER GRATEFUL for. It had a red "transmitting light" and a green "receiving light".

For those who don't know, I didn't then. Red means signal is going up and out. Green means "we got your signal the Calvary is coming!"
I almost in tears just writing this. I cannot express how important that little green light was. I remember after about an 1 1/2 wondering what was going to happen/ how long can I hold on and take this beating then I heard Ole screaming LOOK! LOOK!
And there was that little green light.

Then it was time to fight.








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Old 02-03-2016, 07:19   #144
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

The multiple EPIRBS are important because when I talked to the CG after they had told me that if one EPIRB had gone off they would have sent the C-130 and made the helo "ready" in Elizabeth station NC ready. But since 2 went off in succession they sent the helo at the same time. The C-130 arriving first but really couldn't do much except keep us company by flying low over us at regular intervals and giving us hope.




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Old 02-03-2016, 07:27   #145
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pirate Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

Rovin... makes my 'Storm Experiences' seem like a walk in the park.. just hope I never leave the park..
Thanks for all the great info..
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:29   #146
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
One of the most important things was I absolutely knew that we were not getting out there that night. So I made the decision to say "well your a dead man so let's see if we can give myself a fighting chance just for the hell of it." I thought about what I was going to face WHEN the boat WAS going to capsize.
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:47   #147
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
I guess what I would like to do is inform people about what happened and how I think I survived. So others can make their own plan and maybe have an idea of what they are facing in reality. Because to be honest I STILL can't believe what I saw and experienced that night and the fact that I am sitting here with a wife and two beautiful boys.

One of the most important things was I absolutely knew that we were not getting out there that night. So I made the decision to say "well your a dead man so let's see if we can give myself a fighting chance just for the hell of it." I thought about what I was going to face WHEN the boat WAS going to capsize.

1. Hypothermia
2. Drowning
3. Being beaten to a pulp by the waves (so injury)
3. Time (giving myself enough of it for someone to come get us)

I had a meter in my head that started at % 80 chance of survival before we went over. - Have to have hope even if it's blind.

We flipped the boat it immediately filled with water and debris, it was waist high in seconds.
Slugged through the water to get to the salon which was now in the opposite direction. (Massive disorientation)
Steve ordered me to grab the ditch bag and go out the escape hatch. I did.
I clipped on the dry/ditch bag to my life jacket at the waist. It had already inflated by now. Opened the hatch saw the D ring to my left recognized what it was for and climbed out.
As soon as I climbed out I was in the fury of the waves, with me being clipped onto the boat I was dragged back and forth under water was the waves broke and receded on the overturned hull for at least a minute maybe more. This time was brutal. I was underwater being thrown back and forth like being caught in the surf but being held to a point and then being attached at the waist. I felt that I was going to break in half the wrong way at the waist. As soon as I got a second to unclip I did on rode the next surge to the tramp where I grabbed on with my fingers for dear life. Hoping that I was not washed passed that point. Because if I did miss that point I was done for. Float away by myself. If I was a foot away from the boat I might was well been a mile. I gathered my life line got to the carabiner and almost fainted when I saw that it was bent WIDE open from the force I just experienced from the surge.
And yes my life line was the three clip version from a marine store, same as the life jacket. No I don't remember which kind. But to say that was lost a lot of hope when I saw that would be a massive understatement.

Survival meter now at less then %50

I pulled out the EPIRB and was Immediately dismayed about the tiny little line that was wrapped around it. I did my best to secure it to the boat/tramp. And then myself to the tramp lying face down in the water with waves breaking over me. I tied my life line as the clip was useless.

Steve and Ole came out a few minutes later, rode the surge to where I was and we all just went quiet. Remember there are still 50kt winds and 35-45 seas so we went quiet the situation was deafening.

After what I think was 20-30 minutes I realized that was enough time for my panic session and that I was losing massive body heat by laying down holding on to the tramp. So I looked around for an alternative and saw the dolphin strike. Crawled over to it stood up and held onto it for the next 11 1/2 hours.

Steve in the confusion of the capsize never found his outer shell OR his life line to his life jacket. Lesson here keep them together at all times. (I know this seems a given but it wasn't here).
I saw this and knew if I didn't do something about it here would surely be lost overboard before anything else. So I tied the end of my line to the tramp then clipped him in to the middle clip to his and the other end to mine. So I was in an awkward bent over position holding on to him for the next 6 hours until he finally slipped out of his life jacket.

Reason for living I believe #1 - we had 2 EBIRP's. The main boat one and Ole had a new (at that time) personal EBIRB.

The one I had tied on broke free within 5 minutes and drifted away. Survival meter less the %30 now.

Ole's was held onto his life jacket by a cable. A cable. As an EPIRB should be. His EPIRB also had a feature that I will be FOREVER GRATEFUL for. It had a red "transmitting light" and a green "receiving light".

For those who don't know, I didn't then. Red means signal is going up and out. Green means "we got your signal the Calvary is coming!"
I almost in tears just writing this. I cannot express how important that little green light was. I remember after about an 1 1/2 wondering what was going to happen/ how long can I hold on and take this beating then I heard Ole screaming LOOK! LOOK!
And there was that little green light.

Then it was time to fight.








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Rovin God Bless and Thank YOU for sharing.


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Old 02-03-2016, 08:08   #148
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

It's good to talk about it and if it can help anyone in the future that would make it a little less of a tragedy.




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Old 02-03-2016, 08:08   #149
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

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Rovin God Bless and Thank YOU for sharing.


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Amen,
From what I gathered from your description, being a Cat or not may not have made much difference, there are sometimes just non-survivable conditions for our little boats.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:45   #150
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Re: Lagoon 380 Tragedy

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Originally Posted by Rovin View Post
It's good to talk about it and if it can help anyone in the future that would make it a little less of a tragedy.
Once again thanks for sharing. This information is invaluble. The Green light on the EPIRB is something that would be easy to underestimate the importance of
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