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Old 03-02-2017, 16:29   #91
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Paul isn't the Power Assist function on the MultiPlus doing the same thing?

PowerAssist - Boosting the capacity of shore or generator power
This feature takes the principle of PowerControl to a further dimension. It allows the MultiPlus to supplement the capacity of the alternative source. Where peak power is so often required only for a limited period, the MultiPlus will make sure that insufficient shore or generator power is immediately compensated for by power from the battery. When the load reduces, the spare power is used to recharge the battery.


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Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
The Quatro has AC input from: Shore power and from generator.

It automatically switches to best available source to give continuous AC output to the vessel.

So if you are running on Inverter and plug in to shore power it auto switches to shore power through the device, if the boats load exceeds the shore power supply it will augment it with inverter generated AC.

If you now turn on the generator which in our case can supply 50 amps it will switch to generator AC through the device.

So you prioritize the switching to your highest powered AC source, followed by the next AC source and if neither available use the batteries to supply AC generated by inverter.
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Old 04-02-2017, 00:31   #92
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Yep you are correct John the difference is number of AC sources auto switched attached from Victron web site.




I have the Quattro. I disconnected the L450 manual Generator shore power change over switch, the Two AC inputs and the AC output to distribution are then directly wired straight into Quattro and apply 12 Vots DC and job done. Automatically switches between Inverter/Shore power/Generator as required. Plus the 120 amp battery charger when on Shore power or Generator. I left the original Lagoon 60 and 40 amp chargers wired in but switched of gives redundancy and if you ever need maximum charge to battery can be switched in to add another 100 amps of charging if required.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:02   #93
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Great stuff. So to cover electricity first.

I'm pricing things up and sticking to Victron for now but only for ease of research purposes. I may or may not go with this brand.

I like the idea of starting out with 1000w of solar and then quite easily being able to add a second row of 3x SunPower panels running port- starboard. Then I can start with 1x Victron BlueSolar 150/85 = 570. I can add a second when/if I add another row of panels.

Lagoon don't credit me on the battery chargers or batteries so I'll start out with these and can always make changes down the line.

Inverter. The Victron Phoenix inverter c 12/2000 = 763 and these can be linked in series to add more power later also. The Quattro at 3000 is just out of budget at present and as stated,I'm already paying for the battery chargers from Lagoon anyway. I also like the idea of the 2 chargers as redundancy.

I'll also add a battery monitor and display so I'm looking at around 3000 for parts inc the panels plus building the frame. Sounds like a fairly good start?

I think the benefit with the Quattro is that it handles all switching from sources so that if we were to start the generator whilst using 220 supplied from the batteries, the Quattro deals with it accordingly? Would I need to remember to switch off the inverter in my set up before I started the generator?

Thanks again.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:11   #94
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Winches.

Lagoon charge 5,800euro for all electric in lieu of standard and 2000euro for a electric winch at the davits. I have chosen to go with the single electric winch at the helm and manual at the davits. I may regret this but I don't mind a bit of graft and it will keep me fit. I definitely intend on winching up the dinghy every night tho. I think for the 2000euro, I'd rather have the teak decks and I can't have everything unfortunately.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:23   #95
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

I also went with the manual winch for the Davits

No big deal at all. Its so easy and quick to bring it up

so no worries


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Old 04-02-2017, 01:59   #96
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

"Would I need to remember to switch off the inverter in my set up before I started the generator?"

Not just switch it off also disconnect from AC circuit with a new change over switch that you will also need and turn on the AC chargers that need to be off when inverter on.

As standard you will have a shore Power / Generator change over switch you will have to add a manual switch after that to cut off Shore Power/generator supply and use the inverter to supply AC to boat. You will also have to manually switch off the chargers or they will try to run off the inverter and charge batteries while draining them, (does not work for very long) before your batteries are very flat do not ask how I know.

So by choosing the cheaper non charger inverter you are going to give your self some manual switching operations, that you need to be careful off, also some more hardware and wiring for the New Inverter change over switch.

I would be careful what you save on the hardware may well end up costing more in the long run with installation labor and materials cost, depend on what those are.

Also you may end up with a not so user friendly system. End of the day it's a trade off between cost and convenience.

You will arrive at a marina connect the shore power to the boat, turn off the inverter, change over the inverter/ AC switch, turn on the chargers and ensure the Generator / Shore Power switch is switched to shore power.
Just saying.
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:22   #97
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Jesus!
With my current boat (actually sold it on Wednesday so we are boatless for a while) the batteries, charging, alternators, diodes, AC from generator, EVC etc was the absolute bane of my life so whatever will make our lives simpler and less likely to break something is the way I'll go. Switching and isolating different sources all the time does not interest me and will drive my wife nuts.

So would all agree that I should ditch the Lagoon chargers and go for the Quattro? Charger inverter all in 1 option.

3000 is steep but a fuss free life and happy wife is more than worth it. Other than cost, what's the downside?

How simple is switching from 1 input to another and how simple is the daily routine. Our install needs to be user friendly enough for others to use if I'm not on board.
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:53   #98
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Hi dave i would not have the factory option of the inverter i would fit a larger inverter we have a 5kva victron quattro which allows 3-3.5kva usage with no problems.if you are running the dishwasher or washer machine we can still make water or heat the hot water .as we have seen 1808 watts going in from the solar this also boost the gen or the shore power.we only have a 4kva onan gen which is slightly to small. In the last 12 months we have only done 41hours on the gen mainly due to my wifes phillips air fryer which we mainly use for evening meals when there is no sunlight.we fitted the quattro because it allows 2 inputs one from the gen which has main priority because it allows 4kva approx35amps then the shore power which is only 16amps.we have six sunpower x21 across the stern of the boat which gives extra sun and rain protection a great bonus and 4 flexible solar panels 2x100 plus2x120. We run 3 victron 150/75 solar controllers which are all monitored buy a victron color screen.the quattro also has a 220 amp battery charger.we only have 720amp battery pack which we are upgrading to 1500amp.we have a large enough battery charger and solar to control this amount. I would only like a 6-7kva gen if i was doing it again.when we first started sailing the factory solar was not big enough the run the fridges and freezer both chart plotters,auto pilot and instruments and would set off the battery alarm so you need something extra.i would have all electric winches their brilliant it really makes single handed sail really easy and my wife can handle all the lines without any stress it is not the cost of the winches alone but all the wiring and circuit breakers which is a big job to retro fit we would strongly recommend having them fitted it really is a great option.We have a 45kg ultra anchor and a chain counter which is the best thing for peace of mind.We have the teak floor in the rear cockpit and bathrooms. The solar is only 12 volt if you would like to talk to me direct i can email you my number Click image for larger version

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Old 04-02-2017, 09:09   #99
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Dave and others here is what I'm thinking on the electrical front.

With the essentials package and gel option I will have 840 a/h of battery and 60a and 40a battery chargers. 230v 50hz boat with aircon.

Genset 7kva Onan - big enough to run the aircon every night in the tropics and charge the batteries, make fresh water, heat water, etc. I may have to make sure everything is not on at the same time but I would prefer that over the standard 11kva generator banging away all night at 25% utilization just to power the Aircon. Parts are available for Onan all over.

3Kva Victron Miltiplus inverter charger. About $1600. If the inverter isn't big enough I can add a second 3Kva Victron Miltiplus later as a slave to the first. On the charging side the multiplus has the temp and dedicated voltage sensor wires required for Lithuim batteries should I ever go that way. For the lagoon gels it could be run together with the standard lagoon chargers from the genset or the shore power to give 220a of charging. That's about 25% of the size of the 840a gel batteries so it doable.

Solar 6 big panels over the davits. I hear that the semiflexable panels screwed onto the fiberglass leave nasty discoloring if you ever choose to remove them so I want go with them. Victron MPPTs to suit.

Victron colour control gx panel to control and monitor all the victron gear.

Alternators 2 x 125a standard I think. Test and see how many amps they actually produce and then consider adding a smart regulator or second alternator using Yanmars optional mounting brackets.

Future batteries. I dont have the knowledge to manage a diy type Lithium battery bank and the victron and mastervolt options are way too expensive. Firefly batteries look good. Maybe in the time it takes to kill the lagoon gel batteries something else will come up.
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Old 04-02-2017, 13:48   #100
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

"I should ditch the Lagoon chargers and go for the Quattro?"

If you can stretch to extra initial cost go for the Quattro You will not regret it, but do not ditch the original chargers. leave them installed but switched off.
Redundancy if you ever have any issues withe the Victron and can be manually switched on if charging from the Generator or Shore-power and the need for an extra 100 amp/hr charging is required. Useful to have if you have inadvertently discharge your batteries on anchor when the sun is not shining.


"How simple is switching from 1 input to another and how simple is the daily routine."

With the Quattro if you are on shore power and need to go to 12 V inverter to depart dock you un-plug the shore power cable from the boat. That's it boat now runs off inverter. You are at anchor and you need to run the generator, you start the generator and boat switches to that source automatically. Batteries are now fully charged, because you still have only half of your solar panels installed. Turn generator off boat switches back to 12 V inverter. Very happy wife so happy life.

As I said before look at whole picture the installation costs of Inverter are not inconsiderable. With very large fuse and large cables on the DC side and AC cabling as well. Adding the second one later to double up inverter capacity is going to cost extra to doing it all at the same time.

Steve450 system is brilliant what he did being fully integrated with Victron Solar chargers, inverter/charger and monitor is just the best. Mine is a mix up of Victron / Outback marine / mastervolt it works the same but involved more mucking around in the set up / install time.

I also started with only 5 x sun power panels added the 6th after being on the boat just 5 months. If you only go with 3 to start with have the frame for 6 made and pre-cabled because sooner than later you will want more.

I only have the 3 kW Quattro that was my big mistake at installation going to small it means I need to run my generator to make water and can not run more than one of the big drain appliances at the same time. Toaster / kettle / Coffee machine / Hot water heater etc.

The time this shows up as a problem is with guests on board they tend to want to boil the jug and make toast at the same time because the L450 is as comfortable as living on shore and appears on the surface to be as convenient in regards to power availability. I forget to give them the power lecture when they come aboard so it is my fault.

Power on a boat is like money and wine when did you here any one say I wish I had less power (money or wine) available to use on the boat.

I do not know what marina fees are like where you will be cruising but here the average marina fees for a month is the difference between a 3kW and a 5 kW Quattro or 2.5 to 5 Sunpower Solar panels. The easier that you can live on anchor in the future is going to be saving you money.

I just re-read this post I sound like a sales man zealot for some boat electrical company. The number of people that have been on my boat for sun downers at 5,O,Clock and say they wish they either had or had done something similar in regards to power is huge.

The odd ones that say you do not need all this electrical gear and power to be a pure sailor/cruiser on the seas in some ways are correct, you do not need it, but it sure makes life easier and more pleasant the 90% of the time you are at anchor looking at the view out the back door.

What ever system you decide on you are in for the time of your life.
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Old 04-02-2017, 14:04   #101
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

"Maybe in the time it takes to kill the lagoon gel batteries something else will come up."

My L421 had Exide 6 x 140 amp/hr they lasted 16 months before I had to replace them (Bare boat charter boat in Whitsundays). Replaced with Lifeline 6 x 2 volt 900 amp/hr. Lasted 4 1/2 years just replaced with 1000 amp/hr of Chinese Gel less than half the cost of Lifeline's will see how long they last.

My L450 full time live aboard 6 x 120 amp Gel (original Lagoon supply) dead after 3 years. The case on one was red hot, split and venting what smelled like H2S gas under the owners side bed (wife had been accusing me of having a farting issue for most of the day ) so if this happens to you do not just ignore her as I did, go check your batteries.

Replaced with 6 x 166 amp Chinese Gel, hoping for another 3 years.
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Old 04-02-2017, 16:34   #102
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

PaulinaOz......all electric all the time. Electric wenches make it easier to do everything, so I do more of everything because of them

If I needed a workout (manual winches) I would join a gym.
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Old 04-02-2017, 16:47   #103
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Ouote "PaulinaOz......all electric all the time. Electric wenches make it easier to do everything, so I do more of everything because of them"

You are preaching to the converted, I could not agree more.

Ouote "If I needed a workout (manual winches) I would join a gym"

If I need a workout I will have a glass of red wine.

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Old 04-02-2017, 19:36   #104
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedindubai View Post
Winches.

Lagoon charge 5,800euro for all electric in lieu of standard and 2000euro for a electric winch at the davits. I have chosen to go with the single electric winch at the helm and manual at the davits. I may regret this but I don't mind a bit of graft and it will keep me fit. I definitely intend on winching up the dinghy every night tho. I think for the 2000euro, I'd rather have the teak decks and I can't have everything unfortunately.
Do be aware upgrading later is twice the price. A single electric winch is nearly $5k.

New your only paying the difference between normal and electric. later will be a lot more.
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Old 04-02-2017, 23:22   #105
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Thanks to all those contributing so far for the generous advice and allowing us to benefit from your learning curve.

Here's a brief list of the possible mistakes we are trying to avoid so far, each requires research and is ultimately personal choice. We have mostly followed the advice given on here so far which will give us a head start and I hope save us money and headaches in the long term. Hopefully this thread will help others buying after us.

flexible solar panels on the roof
over priced options from Lagoon
inverter power
anchor supplied by Lagoon
sofa in owners cabin
generator size
mast head nav light
Lagoon refrigeration and ice maker
get spinnaker deck gear added at factory and buy own downwind sails
composite bimini
dining tables
winches.

We plan to be live aboards so our decisions are based on home comforts, simplicity, cruising ability and living at anchor (and of course keeping my wife happy).
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