450: Just signed on a new 450s!

[davedindubai]

Welcome to Cruisers Forum and congratulations! You're going to love it!

I'll try and answer all your questions as best as I can but don't forget, all my choices are made for us to live on board and sail around the world so your needs may be different.

1. IMO you don't need 11kva, I think 9kva max is fine but I'd defo consider going for Onan or Northern Lights. Spare parts are not easy to get for the Paguro and mechanics won't want to touch it.

2. Forget the Lagoon inverter. Over priced and 2kva will be tripping every time you try and make toast and tea at the same time!

3. Water maker we did after market. We have a sea recovery 130l per hours 220v. I love it.

4. I think there were things on the comfort package like electric toilets and the galley window ( I forget the whole list) but I remember we never even considered not going for it.

5. We pushed the deadline on our options list right to the very end. I think it was maybe 2 months before launch that our final selection had to be in.

6. We had no experience at all. I ended up having to work and missed the launch so I had a friend of a friend sail it to Gibraltar. This was the first time my wife Hayley had been on a sail boat. The first time I pulled a halyard was when we departed Gibraltar for Ibiza.

7. I think the most important thing to get right is the electrical side of things. Being on a boat and not knowing how to get the kettle working or how to turn on the AC is no fun. Without doubt, the best thing I did was our Victron install. Living on our boat is just like living at home in our apartment. There's no switching this / isolate that, if we want power it's there. Solar is the 2nd best thing we did. It gives us shade, shelter from the rain and gives us loads of power into the batteries. win win win.

As for all your other questions, ask away! You've caught me at a very good time.

[aelyafi]

Thanks Dave.

1- How much was the watermaker? Did the broker get it installed before launching the boat? I am not convinced with the price Lagoon are charging.

2- I opted against the Bimini. I think I will install one aftermarket. Thoughts?

3- I'm still reading the thread... I'm on page 18 now do you have a final list of your electrical setup with prices?

4- did you go with insurance provided by your broker? Can I ask how much it was?

5- what licenses did you get? I'm doing my Competent Crew in Dubai in Nov, then aiming for Day Skipper. Is that good enough for insurance?

6- I decided tu o go for 2 electrical and 2 manual toilets... Thoughts?

7- did you get a washing machine? Lagoon or aftermarket?

I'm now watching your YouTube videos! Awesome!!

I'm also picking up the boat in France and planning to sail the summer of 2019...however,got kids in school, so I might leave the boat for a while... Or maybe not.. Still undecided.

[davedindubai]

Glad you like the vids! They should help as you'll be going thru exactly what we did. It's all very exciting!

1. I met a Sea Recovery rep from the states at the Dubai Boat Show and he put me in touch with 'Fix' at the Sea Recovery dealer in France. I haggled and got the Aqua Mini 750 for 9,000euro. It was delivered to the yard who commissioned in France (Yacht Care Services) and installed there.

2. Here i can help. Get the bimini and the full surrounds! you'll have a very wet boat without them both.

3. I'm not sure of exact prices but approx: £4,000 on electrical gear, £4,000 on install costs, £4,000 on solar tower.

4. Insurance is with Pantaneus. very happy so far. Basically it's £2,000 in the Med, £4,000 in Caribbean, £6,000 in South Pacific

5. I have kept the insurance fully up to date with our trip, crew numbers, our experience etc. I had a boat for 4 years in Dubai with no claims and i've worked offshore for 20 years so this all helped satisfy them. Any big offshore passage and we took a yacht master offshore with us to keep the insurance happy and also we learned a lot this way too.

6. I can see the sense in that. If an electrical toilet breaks you've got manual as back up.

7. Yes, we got the washing machine from Lagoon. It was easier than trying to fit it ourselves after. It seams the boat is built around the washing machine!

The med is so good that we decided to come back for another look!

2.

[aelyafi]

Hi Dave,

Back to the Bimini, I am considering getting an aftermarket one. So that I can put the solar on it. 10550 Euros is a lot for Fiberglass and Stainless steel.

The Cockpit covers... did you get them from lagoon or aftermarker?

Washing machine... still cant imagine coughing 1800Euros for one ... I will rethink this.

[davedindubai]

There's a limited amount of space on the bimini for solar as much of it is taken up with windows which you'll want to give light and view the sails.

It is a lot of money but that does include the full surrounds for the bimini. It's completely dry and you couldn't feel more safe in a bad storm.

Where would you get this made? Forget L'Sables, it'll cost you more than it does from Lagoon and I wouldn't fancy 1,000nm sail without it.

Cockpit surrounds are from Lagoon and I also strongly recommend them. We have the side down almost every day regardless of weather. The rears only go down at night when we are sailing, they keep the noise out and the crew in.

The washing machine is a tough one. It's a 300euro Candy washer and I agree very hard to justify 1,800euro on it.

[Darksyde]

I have to Agree with Dave.

We have a 450 F but the Cockpit Surroundings from Lagoon are from NV and they are fantastic
in Quality and durability.

M

[Pascals Wager]

aelyafi congrats on the 450S order, can I add my two cents worth.
I did my own genset install, a Paguro 8.5Kva. The price you were quoted sounds alot, you can get the 8500 for about half that
https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/1500-...uro-generators can't comment on parts as its been working fine.
I went for this model as its a 1500rpm engine and should last longer and is quieter than a 3000rpm unit. Capacity is just fine.

I didn't order the bimini as at the time there was not a window in the top to see the rig and I didn't like that. Lagoon have now installed one and I will order the factory bimini as it will be much easier to just add the factory tent/clears.

I also installed my own washing machine, a Samsung Eco Bubble 6kg, fits great.
Agree with Dave on the Inverter, I installed a 5000 watt unit.
Are you in Dubai?

[aelyafi]

Originally Posted by Pascals Wager

George i had to remove the cabin door and door frame from port fwd to get the machine in place. Came off easily. The install wasnt difficult, i included a extraction fan as per the original. Remember to find a method to secure the machine in place so it doest rock around in waves.

Rod
Attachment 159237

Hi.. you mind posting a picture of the washing machine ?

[davedindubai]

I forgot to add, if you do go for the Paguro then defo go for the 1500rpm unit. We can hardly hear ours and it should last longer, be more fuel efficient etc. I still wish I'd gone Onan, Kohler or NL.

[c-reel]

Dave,
You saved a lot of space and weight on the Paguro vs Onan (100kg) and the peak current if higher for lower model, meaning (for example) you can start AC or best a dive compressor with a smaller model (like the 6500).

While Kohler is super well known worldwide for big stuff, some people using small genset like the 7EFKozd - 7kw, aren't that happy (but yes, they can find mechanics worldwide easily like the onan)

NL version: M773LW3 7kW: quite big and heavy. Also expensive to source in France for instal on new boat.
The smaller one: M673L3 - 5kW, super popular in the US, is quite nice but a bit short on current, putting a compressor start at risk or requiring a soft start. And then also difficult to get in France at good price.

So .. I still think you made a good choice!! Did you really struggle to get your serviced?

Main issue with Paguro is the distributor in France has a different pricing strategy from the one in the UK.

Originally Posted by davedindubai

I forgot to add, if you do go for the Paguro then defo go for the 1500rpm unit. We can hardly hear ours and it should last longer, be more fuel efficient etc. I still wish I'd gone Onan, Kohler or NL.

[davedindubai]

Well it's always nice to hear I made a good choice CR, thanks.

I do like the Paguro, it's always supplied the power we need and has always run. We did in fact have problems getting it to stop and this wasn't easy to fix. We had a problem with the remote stop which was caused due to an incorrect install. I believe back current from the generator blew the remote so for a few weeks the only way I could stop the genny was locally by going fwd and opening the locker, taking off the front cover and manually killing it. The only place I managed to get an engineer was Sardinia who diagnosed the issue and ordered us a new remote. He also then installed 2 relays, one for the fuel pump and 1 for the fan so they only run when we start the genny. Since then, it's been very reliable with around 400hrs so far.

I've done all the servicing myself approx every 100hrs, new impellor, oil, filters etc. There's a handy little lift pump built into the genny so it's pretty easy doing an oil change.

You'll not find filters however, anywhere in the Caribbean so make sure you've got all the cross referenced filter numbers and a load of spares before you leave Europe. Advance Yacht Systems do a cruisers spares kit for £500 and I'd seriously think about getting it.

The real bonus as CR says is size and weight. I've still got enough space in the genny locker to store all my spares (engines, watermaker, genset, outboard), my tool box and our shore power cables!

[c-reel]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Well it's always nice to hear I made a good choice CR, thanks.!

My pleasure!
If you are still bored, here are some more stuff to keep enriching this thread!

ARC specific:
==========
- Did you have to fix and buy some specifics (and unexpected) stuff to fit the ARC requirements (they have a good list, but in case)
- Do you have a rough $ number of how much it cost doing the ARC for 5 people (fees, food, fuel) ?
- did you or your crew-friends had to take a specific insurance (ex: if one had to be evacuated in a cargo ship which had to re-route - due to appendicitis !?)
- was it easy for them to fly in Grand canaria and out in St Lucy or did they had to stay longer and fly out somewhere else ?

Other Misc stuff on your boat:
====================
- what satellite mail server are you using (Ocens, sailmail, uuplus, Xgate?). And are you happy with it?
- did you have to run any modification on the bilge pump due to alarm going on
- do you have the problem of hot water taking for ever to reach the owner cabine (like in L450F)
- where do you think you have spend the more time and money on the Lagoon maintenance ?
- Are you happy with the fridge/freezer configuration (1+1 from lagoon + the portable one in the cockpit ?)


And as a commercial diver, I still dont get how come you havent found a way to get a nitrox membrane compressor on the L450s

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by c-reel

My pleasure!
If you are still bored, here are some more stuff to keep enriching this thread!

Bored? Picture this... I'm locked in a tin can and in the 16 days I've been in here we have done only 3 dives due to technical problems. Fortunately Cruisers Forum is a very fast website so keeping me entertained despite my crap internet connection. Anyhow...

ARC questions:

Simply, yes, you have to have everything on the arc safety items list to pass inspection. You won't be starting the race until you have ticked every box. I completely agreed with this, it means you know exactly what safety kit every other boat has should you need their help. I had most stuff but whatever you don't have, you'll be able to get in the local chandlers. Take the pilot books you want for the Caribbean tho, they don't have the best selection and run out.

There'll be little jobs to do like making sure your bilge pump handles are tied off and can't fall over board.

I had to buy a plug in 12v search light, a 24hr emergency rations pack for the life raft, a larger radar reflector, whistles for my life ring and rescue line, an extra throw bag, the danbouy had to be secured to my life ring. A few other bits and bobs but 99% of people fail the first inspection and you'll be able to get everything in GC.

Fees: ARC fees were £2150 for 5 pax. If someone pulls out last minute you can get a refund for their fee. It's about £150 each.

Fuel: If you don't use any then nothing. We motored for 56 hrs total but I'd say most people did a lot more (I just couldn't afford it). Fuel is tax free in St Lucia and $1/liter.

Food: We spent around £2,500 for the 5 of us but that's considered a fairly high budget. We like our food and trust me, there's not a lot to do out there but fish, cook, eat, repeat. We shared the costs.
Insurance: Pantaneus for the boat and TopSail Gold yachtsman for us.

Visas: We are all Europeans and no issues with travel. I did all the crew a skippers letter but wasn't required.

Comms / weather: iridium Go with Predict Wind. Couldn't fault it! 100% recommend. I had the unlimited data and used it all day for emails. We could even send photos of us to the ARC team to add to the blog each day. I downloaded a 3-5 day weather forecast every 6 hours and chased the wind as much as we could. We even made phone calls which are perfect quality.

What bilge pump alarm? Lagoon don't fit one on a 450S! You won't want the AC on anyway, I know others who's alarms drive them crazy too.

Hot water: yep, it takes ages to reach our shower too so I go first and warm it up for Hayley. It's the distance between hot water tank and the shower.

Maintenance: I tend to fix things as they come up. So far she's been very reliable with only small issues. We bent the gooseneck pin on the crossing but I got the metal fabricators over the road in Rodney Bay to straighten it. We chaffed some lines, ripped the sail bag and small repairs to both sails but all stuff to be expected.

Engine maintenance: has all been done pretty much bang on the recommended hours, I've been fairly strict on this and so far they haven't given us any problems at all. I think we're now at over 12,000nm and they haven't skipped a beat.

Fridges: there's never enough. We'd like 2x fridges and 1x freezer ideally. I am still planning to add a cockpit drinks fridge as the S doesn't get one.

To be honest, we haven't done any of our planned alterations / upgrades yet due to money. We sold everything we had just to get across the pond. Hayley sold her wedding dress and I no longer wear a rolex Last year wasn't easy financially and we borrowed from a lot of people just to keep going. Not doing the ARC and selling the boat was a very real possibility this time last year. We made it thru tho thank god and luckily I've had work this year to get us back on track. A dive compressor will be coming next year!

First tho, I want a new saloon and a new hob and oven so we will get those sorted this winter and then the dive compressor for next spring. Forget Nitrox, I'll be fine with air. Check out the Bauer II I think it's called, electric version.

Hope this helps!

[Pascals Wager]

aelyafi, photo of the washer

[davedindubai]

Very nice PW. You saved around 1,500euro there!
Ours is bolted thru into the cabinet below in all 4 corners but having removed the washer, I can say this is not necessary. That thing isn't moving in any of the seas we've been i so far.
We do have issues with it tho in any kind of swell. If it's trying to pump out and there's a wave over the outlet it will give an error code. I close the 1/4 turn, remove the outlet hose and blow thru the line and try the cycle again. This usually works.
Obviously, it's not meant for use mid Atlantic but Hayley loves washing!