Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-02-2017, 00:36   #1
Registered User
 
DavefromNZ's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NZ
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 487
Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

We tried our Jordan Series Drogue on our Lagoon 450 today. Here is some info and pictures and videos.

It was calm and we were at 2kts boat speed. We did not have the chain attached as it was too shallow to risk it. We found that the best way to launch was to put the bridles out with the head of the drogue and a recovery line attached. We then put the tail over the port bridle and ease out on the port side. All went well.

At high cruise power the L450 does 8kts and with the drogue out we were at 5 kts.

Recover at only 2kts was not so easy. The strain on the line was very large. We tried first winching (Harken 40) the recovery line and disconnecting the bridles. The drogue line head rope jammed on the winch. We recovered. The drogue cups kept jamming in the winch. Recover at 2 kts was possible but difficult with frequent cup jamming and risk of ripping the cups. We stopped the yacht and hand pulled in, this was easy.

I think the drogue is great and works well. Recovery needs to be considered and taken carefully. I hope this helps. Dave

Pictures and YouTube videos:







Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7917.jpg
Views:	237
Size:	430.3 KB
ID:	141733

Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7925.jpg
Views:	270
Size:	418.3 KB
ID:	141740

Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7931.jpg
Views:	398
Size:	416.5 KB
ID:	141741

Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7932.jpg
Views:	314
Size:	422.0 KB
ID:	141742

Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7938.jpg
Views:	218
Size:	419.1 KB
ID:	141743

Click image for larger version

Name:	#IMG_7941.jpg
Views:	195
Size:	417.2 KB
ID:	141744
__________________

DavefromNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 01:02   #2
Registered User
 
moniia's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: all over the place. Now Canvey Island, UK
Boat: Westsail/Eric copy
Posts: 81
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Thank you for this note, and free advertising (I make them to order...).

One important note: when deployed "in anger" - attachment points for bridle MUST BE way stronger. On a boat like yours design load for JSD is around 25000 pounds, of which 70% is put on each of bridle legs. That is of course a maximum predicted load - but when used in heavy weather it is possible to reach.

Such loads (8000kg or 17500lbs) require specially prepared anchoring points - essentially large steel cleats on substantial backing, allowing for spreading the load well over large part of the hull. Very similarly to your chainplates- that is about right range of loads.

Mounts like those:
Click image for larger version

Name:	Image1487754027.832694.jpg
Views:	239
Size:	119.7 KB
ID:	141751
Click image for larger version

Name:	Image1487754044.205094.jpg
Views:	219
Size:	138.3 KB
ID:	141752

will probably fail in heavy weather (the block quite spectacularly- I've had an overloaded block exploding ).
__________________

__________________
--
Kind regards, Monika Matis
www.seawitch-sailing.co.uk
moniia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 01:13   #3
Registered User
 
DavefromNZ's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NZ
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 487
Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Yes I agree with regard to the strength required for the attachments. The block in the picture was just a temporary attempt to haul in the drogue line when it had jammed on the winch.

I had stainless plates made up for the L450 as the aft cleats would not have been strong enough and were not positioned very well. There are the same size backing plates underneath.

Cheers, Dave

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3743.JPG
Views:	231
Size:	333.6 KB
ID:	141753Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3816.JPG
Views:	254
Size:	397.6 KB
ID:	141754Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3824.JPG
Views:	228
Size:	283.1 KB
ID:	141755
DavefromNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 01:25   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,521
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavefromNZ View Post
Yes I agree with regard to the strength required for the attachments. The block in the picture was just a temporary attempt to haul in the drogue line when it had jammed on the winch.

I had stainless plates made up for the L450 as the aft cleats would not have been strong enough and were not positioned very well. There are the same size backing plates underneath.

Cheers, Dave

Attachment 141753Attachment 141754Attachment 141755
Looking at same setup for my boat have some concerns...

As boat rotates in big seas, only one attachment takes load occasionally and under different (larger) angle than on the picture, so metal plate gets large pulling force towards centre of boat.

Do you think this setup is strong enough to counter these forces ?
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 01:45   #5
Registered User
 
moniia's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: all over the place. Now Canvey Island, UK
Boat: Westsail/Eric copy
Posts: 81
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavefromNZ View Post
(...)

I had stainless plates made up for the L450 as the aft cleats would not have been strong enough and were not positioned very well. There are the same size backing plates underneath.
(...)

Oh, I didn't notice this piece, on previous photo it looked like an eyebolt

In such case it seems you made proper preparations how much is that steel? (In thickness?) 1/4 or thicker?
__________________
--
Kind regards, Monika Matis
www.seawitch-sailing.co.uk
moniia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 01:49   #6
Registered User
 
DavefromNZ's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NZ
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 487
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

The top plate is 10mm and bottom 5mm. I think it is very strong and would also take side loads
DavefromNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 02:22   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Falmouth, UK
Posts: 206
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Very informative post DavefromNZ.

You mention that you eventually pulled it in by hand. Was that from the bridle end or the recovery line end?
wiekeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 02:23   #8
Registered User
 
2Wind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Kiwi Dave

Many thanks for positing this interesting series of videos and for you report.

I've been considering the JS Drogue for some time.
What you have shown highlights the concerns that I have in my mind about both deployment and about retrieval.

Considering:
1. You are likely to deploy when caught out in building conditions down wind where you have sea room and no immediate option to shelter.
2. You are also likely to be intermittently surfing but otherwise doing 7-10kts when under reduced sail or bare poles.
3. For a boat the size of your 450 or my 440, the length of the drogue and the number of cups becomes very substantial generating not only high drag loads under deployment but also generating very significant forces during the layout whilst the boat is still running fast and the drogue layout gains pace before abruptly being tethered by the bridle.
4. I would be very fearful of something or someone becoming entangled by the lazy end during the layout especially as it all gains momentum as more is fed out, not to mention the difficulty of reducing the shock load at the conclusion when the bridle takes the strain.
5. I think it is for this reason that most drogues are simply dumped all in to allow self deployment.
6. It all looks simple enough in 2 knots in calm seas but what about 10 kts in big seas with the odd surf to 15kts or more, just at the time you are 70% or more through the laying out with enough lazy line to catch something(one)!
7. You also highlight the difficulty with recovery - challenging even at 2 kts. The prospect of doing less than 2 kts when the wind dies from gale or storm to "strong breeze" at a time you might be interested in moving on, seems remote.
8. Turning and motoring up to it would appear hazardous due to lazy lines in the water near props and rudders. Parachutes are recovered that way but they are off the bow, not the stern.

I'd remain very interested in your and other's views about these issues, especially the retrieval process.

Again, great post and thank you.

Malcolm.
__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
2Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 02:33   #9
Registered User
 
DavefromNZ's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NZ
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 487
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Weikeith, the recovery line only went as far as the point where the bridles attached to the drogue line and we used the to pull it in.

Malcolm, I agree with all you say and these are also my concerns. With the weight of our yachts and the tremendous forces I still think that the drogue is the best option (that I hope to never use). I think with the design and particularly the curve down that the end weight would cause it will have far lower snatch loads than any other system. I think para anchor types at the bow, for instance, would simply rip out.

This Southern Ocean video gives me some confidence:
DavefromNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 03:26   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Falmouth, UK
Posts: 206
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
Kiwi Dave
4. I would be very fearful of something or someone becoming entangled by the lazy end during the layout especially as it all gains momentum as more is fed out, not to mention the difficulty of reducing the shock load at the conclusion when the bridle takes the strain.
Malcolm.
Mine came complete with an 'organiser' that greatly reduces that possibility when deploying. Difficult to explain without a pic (looked, but can't find one), but it's a bit like a giant tool roll with the drogue line arranged in a zig-zag fashion from top to bottom and held in place with elasticated tape loops.

Having said that, I've not tried to deploy it yet, so I don't know how effective it will be, but I will try when I've fitted my bridle anchor plates.

The main concern I have is deploying the drogue without it getting tangled in the stuff I have mounted on the transom - wind vane steering and a drop-down hydro generator - as I need to ensure the bridle goes around the back of them. This may be more difficult than I imagine whilst in the sea conditions that I'd probably be in at the time.
wiekeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 06:10   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Falmouth, UK
Posts: 206
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavefromNZ View Post
Weikeith, the recovery line only went as far as the point where the bridles attached to the drogue line and we used the to pull it in.
Ah, I see. Yes, that's a good idea
wiekeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 10:47   #12
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,346
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Dave - have you had someone run a sheer strength analysis on your fitting? While I'm not an expert, I believe sheer strength of steel alloys is about 60% of tensile strength. The sheer strength of a stainless 1/4" bolt is well under 2000lbs

The Jordan drogue's horizontal force will be all sheer. If the aft side of the U hasp were to sheer it would just bend up releasing the line. Even the cleats seem to be held by just two small diameter bolts with very little clamping area between the cleat and the plate.

I can't tell the diameter of the bolts in the picture. It may be fine. Just thought I'd flag it.
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 11:51   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Topsfield, MA
Boat: J42
Posts: 125
Images: 2
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

We store our JSD in a cylindrical mesh dive gear bag from EMS which has a zipper running lengthwise. Before heading offshore the bag is lashed to the toe rail in the port corner of our stern pulpit. The bitter chain end is laid in first and the cone line flaked in figure 8 loops lengthwise, with the bridle and recovery line on top just inside the zipper. The bridle leads out of the bag through a circular fair lead mounted above the transom to the Jordan specified chain plates on the transom corners. To deploy we unzip the bag and just pull the bridles overboard through the fairlead taking care to avoid fouling our Cap Horn windvane. After a few feet of bridle are in the water the array begins to deploy itself. There is no shock load because at first there is only one cone filled, then two, etc.
Boston Blackie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-02-2017, 12:08   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Topsfield, MA
Boat: J42
Posts: 125
Images: 2
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

Our plates are 3/8' x 3" 316L with 6 3/8 bolts through backing plates. The plate has an enlarged eye which allows the bow shackle to swivel to avoid torsion stress on the shackle.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	JSD PLATE.JPG
Views:	227
Size:	26.7 KB
ID:	141779  
Boston Blackie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2017, 01:59   #15
Registered User
 
kellyp08's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northeast Harbor, Maine
Boat: Sou'wester 50 yawl
Posts: 133
Images: 10
Re: Jordan Series Drogue Launch and Recover Lagoon 450

I bought one of these (Jordan Drogue) a few years ago. Kept it in a sail locker for "just in case". But I have never deployed it in a survival-type storm. However, I thought that if I ever had indication to use it, I would have used two helper lines secured by a rolling hitches to the large cockpit sheet winches port and stb'd, setting the helper lines between each of the little "parachutes" port and stb'd as the parachutes came aboard over the transom. The reason for this more cumbersome approach would be to avoid damage to the parachutes by the large sheet winches. Nonetheless, reports of the difficulty in retrieving the drogue in an angry abating storm is daunting and I guess one will do whatever works to get the drogue back aboard..
__________________

kellyp08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drogue, lagoon

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jordan Series Drogue vs Paratech Sea Anchor toelpel Seamanship & Boat Handling 114 26-11-2015 14:27
For Sale: Jordan Series Drogue infinitysail Classifieds Archive 9 13-05-2012 08:30
Jordan Series Drogue vs Para-Anchor ? markpj23 Health, Safety & Related Gear 5 30-10-2011 20:17
For Sale: Jordan Series Drogue Sirocco Classifieds Archive 8 15-07-2011 14:20

Advertise Here


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.