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Old 27-08-2013, 18:17   #16
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Wendi-
"what would be considered an issue from the survey."
At least in the States, just about everything can be an "issue" from the survey. Anything that wasn't shown, seen, noticed, discussed, before the survey is an issue. Same for the sea trial.
Docked and empty, maybe the fridge is off. When tested or surveyed, maybe it is shown to not work. Maybe there's a dead radar, or powerplant or electrical problems. Maybe the surveyor finds hull or deck problems, or spots cracks or meathooks in the rigging.
It is up to the parties to the contract, you and the seller, to agree on what will be material and what can abort the sale if you can't agree on a remedy to any problem. Typically that would mean anything structural or safety issues, and cosmetics, a bad stereo, or burnt out light bulbs wouldn't be an issue. No linens for the berths? Not an issue.
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Old 27-08-2013, 18:59   #17
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

It is more than a lender that may require a survey, your insurance company will also require one.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:38   #18
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

I would get one on ANY used boat. You dont know who the last owner was and whether he parked the boat on the bricks in a blow or if he just sat on the mooring.

A two year old boat is unlikely to have problems. But considering the price of a Lagoon a survey is chump change.

Plus- here's the big plus. You get to spend a day listening to the wise words of a surveyor and inspecting every nook and cranny of the boat. Thus preparing you with knowledge of future problems that he may be aware of.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:56   #19
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

I think even new boats should be surveyed at least before the warranty runs out (bias admitted). Example ..... All Lagoon cats I have seen a NPS throughulls fitted to NPT brass ( yes brass !) chrome plated ball valves. All Lagoon surveys should include removal of ball valves for close inspection of the threads as corrosion is often severe.
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Old 27-08-2013, 19:56   #20
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

One of the things a survey does is establish what's on the boat as part of the sale. In other words, it's a SURVEY of the boat's inventory, as well as its condition.

If the survey says the boat has a life raft, and then you take delivery of a boat without its life raft, the survey is a legal document to show that you've just been ripped off. If the survey says that the boat has an eight-man life raft, and then you take delivery of a boat with a four-man raft, the survey is a legal document to show that you're being ripped off.

Yes, you need a survey of a two-year-old boat.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:04   #21
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

[QUOTE=Bash;1324121]One of the things a survey does is establish what's on the boat as part of the sale. In other words, it's a SURVEY of the boat's inventory. QUOTE]

I think this is a blanket statement that does not fit all surveys. My reports specifically state ........

"The vessel is surveyed as found. Loose gear and accessories are neither inventoried nor inspected. Appropriate authorities should be consulted as to required safety gear to be carried for this size and type of vessel".

In other words if it is not permanently attached to the vessel I have no idea if it is part of the deal or if a dock neighbour is going to want his extra life jacket back or not.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:06   #22
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You would be absolutely crazy not to have a survey done. If your broker is telling you that you don't need it then I would say you need a new broker.

If the boat is in Spain, and you aren't fluent in Spanish I would advise bringing a well respected English speaking surveyor.
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:13   #23
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

[QUOTE=boatpoker;1324128]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
One of the things a survey does is establish what's on the boat as part of the sale. In other words, it's a SURVEY of the boat's inventory. QUOTE]

I think this is a blanket statement that does not fit all surveys. My reports specifically state ........

"The vessel is surveyed as found. Loose gear and accessories are neither inventoried nor inspected. Appropriate authorities should be consulted as to required safety gear to be carried for this size and type of vessel".

In other words if it is not permanently attached to the vessel I have no idea if it is part of the deal or if a dock neighbour is going to want his extra life jacket back or not.
I would not accept such a report. The buyer can specifically request that all items not included in the sale be removed or otherwise noted. If the owner wants to keep his charts and his sextant, then it's easy to note this. But such exceptions could amount to thousands of dollars worth of "loose gear and accessories."

I once bought a boat that was supposed to come with six spinnakers that came with none. I took the owner to court, based on the survey, and won. Is a spinnaker "loose gear?" Don't let a surveyor's boilerplate fine print decide what he thinks is "loose gear and accessories."
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:25   #24
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

[QUOTE=Bash;1324134]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post

I would not accept such a report. The buyer can specifically request that all items not included in the sale be removed or otherwise noted. If the owner wants to keep his charts and his sextant, then it's easy to note this. But such exceptions could amount to thousands of dollars worth of "loose gear and accessories."

I once bought a boat that was supposed to come with six spinnakers that came with none. I took the owner to court, based on the survey, and won. Is a spinnaker "loose gear?" Don't let a surveyor's boilerplate fine print decide what he thinks is "loose gear and accessories."
Do you want the surveyor to assess the boat or make an inventory list that you could do yourself. Do you want the surveyor spending time making a list of stuff like in the photos below (3 boats that I surveyed) or do you want him inspecting fuel systems, AC and DC systems, rigging, propane systems, structural integrity etc.

If thats what you want, I'll gladly do it for $100/hr
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Old 27-08-2013, 20:38   #25
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
I would get one on ANY used boat. You dont know who the last owner was and whether he parked the boat on the bricks in a blow or if he just sat on the mooring.

A two year old boat is unlikely to have problems. But considering the price of a Lagoon a survey is chump change.

Plus- here's the big plus. You get to spend a day listening to the wise words of a surveyor and inspecting every nook and cranny of the boat. Thus preparing you with knowledge of future problems that he may be aware of.
Well put ozskipper...and we join the chorus of those speaking in favour of a survey. We surveyed CatNirvana even though she was only 6 mos old when we bought her. Our only added thought would be find a surveyor who does thermo-graphic imaging as that should reveal any serious but otherwise invisible to the eye issues arising out of either the factory or the previous owners' incidents.

Good luck in your search Wendi. We wish you fair winds and following seas, in good health, always...
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Old 27-08-2013, 22:06   #26
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Probably not many surveyors are also riggers, or would actually go aloft. And they may give a rough indication of sail service life, but not much more. Perhaps during sea trials you could get the owner to actually work all the boat equipment and systems.

Also -- purely my opinion -- I think there could be an etiquette of what would be a reasonable reaction of buyer and seller to a survey report. It seems unreasonable for buyers to expect a perfect boat and try to re-negotiate price based on small flaws. It also seems unreasonable for sellers to be inflexible and mule-stubborn about not making repairs or adjusting price if a significant surprise is found.

The hope is that you have enough of a feel for the seller's character to have a decent expectation of reasonableness and integrity.
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Old 27-08-2013, 23:17   #27
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Wendi-
"what would be considered an issue from the survey."
At least in the States, just about everything can be an "issue" from the survey. Anything that wasn't shown, seen, noticed, discussed, before the survey is an issue. Same for the sea trial.
Docked and empty, maybe the fridge is off. When tested or surveyed, maybe it is shown to not work. Maybe there's a dead radar, or powerplant or electrical problems. Maybe the surveyor finds hull or deck problems, or spots cracks or meathooks in the rigging.
It is up to the parties to the contract, you and the seller, to agree on what will be material and what can abort the sale if you can't agree on a remedy to any problem. Typically that would mean anything structural or safety issues, and cosmetics, a bad stereo, or burnt out light bulbs wouldn't be an issue. No linens for the berths? Not an issue.
What is a meathook in the rigging?
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Old 27-08-2013, 23:20   #28
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Probably not many surveyors are also riggers, or would actually go aloft. And they may give a rough indication of sail service life, but not much more. Perhaps during sea trials you could get the owner to actually work all the boat equipment and systems.

Also -- purely my opinion -- I think there could be an etiquette of what would be a reasonable reaction of buyer and seller to a survey report. It seems unreasonable for buyers to expect a perfect boat and try to re-negotiate price based on small flaws. It also seems unreasonable for sellers to be inflexible and mule-stubborn about not making repairs or adjusting price if a significant surprise is found.

The hope is that you have enough of a feel for the seller's character to have a decent expectation of reasonableness and integrity.
Pat, that is what I am trying to create in the contract. The reasonable expectations. But how to make that into legaleeeeze, well that is hard.
I think the boat is a great deal, is fairly new, and I don't want any surprises. If you could create this expectation of reasonableness, how would that be expressed on a contract? Any ideas?
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Old 27-08-2013, 23:22   #29
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

[QUOTE=boatpoker;1324146]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post

Do you want the surveyor to assess the boat or make an inventory list that you could do yourself. Do you want the surveyor spending time making a list of stuff like in the photos below (3 boats that I surveyed) or do you want him inspecting fuel systems, AC and DC systems, rigging, propane systems, structural integrity etc.

If thats what you want, I'll gladly do it for $100/hr
Those are some wild and crazy pictures. I don't think we have that problem.
I am looking for the serious issues, not inventory. The boat is in Spain, where are you located?
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Old 28-08-2013, 00:02   #30
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Re: Do I need a survey on 2 year old boat?

Wendi,
Human relationships are just a bit hard to put into contractual form. You can try, but perhaps you'd have better luck just spending time in conversation with the seller. A good relationship with the seller may become valuable after you buy the boat, when you might have further questions. Perhaps you can get the seller to tell you more about her or his relationship with the boat and how they have used it, what changes they made to the boat, what they might like to have changed about the boat, what they most enjoyed about her, what advice they would give a new owner, etc.
Oh, and if no one has already answered, "meat hooks" are broken strands of rigging that can cause injury to crew, and are a sign of rigging that is likely to need replacement or risk failure.
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