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Old 11-08-2015, 09:21   #1
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Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

This is more a question of curiosity than need, but many of my fellow cruisers every year or two remove the hose from the head to the holding tank and then proceed to swing it around or tap it against a pontoon. This removes a lot of the calcification that accumulates over time in the hoses from urine and salt water doing what they do when mixed.

We aren't having any problems but I noticed that to remove the large hose from the owners side head would be extremely difficult. First it is a large and not very malleable hose. Second it goes from the toilet through a hole not much bigger than it is, then under the fiberglass flooring of the head and then shower (of which I don't believe there is any access to actually get to), then up to the top of the tank. I can get decent access to the tank by removing the walls in the shower, but everything from there back to the hole by the toilet is inaccessible. Running a messenger line is the only option I can think of, but with a stiff hose and small hole to find it would be tricky I would think.

Have any Lagoon 380 owners out there removed the hose on the owner version in the owners head? The other one on the port side I don't think would be a problem, but the owner one looks tricky.

Interested to hear how you accomplished it.

Thanks!
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:52   #2
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Even though I was "primarily" a marine electrician, I would sometimes be asked to work on the head systems on customers' boats. And, I have had to work with the hoses on my own boats as well. Several times I have worked to remove and/or reinstall the large stiff hoses in ways that defied logic and seemed impossible. However, there is always a way, even if it is not the ideal way.

A heat gun, used very carefully, can soften a hose so that it can be moved or taken off a fitting. You have to be very careful if you wish to reuse the hose though as it is easy to over soften it and ruin it. Lubricating any rub spots may be necessary as well. I have used dish soap primarily but electrical wire pulling lubricant can also work - anything slippery that can be cleaned up afterward and which will not attack/ruin the hose or the surrounding materials.

Sometimes it can take hours to just remove or reinstall a single hose. That is when you curse the designer or original installer for not giving you a better way to route the hose. But if it was put in there it is possible to take out and replace. (Provided that they did not build the boat around the installed hose at the factory or during a major refit where the cabinetry was removed and put on after. Sad to say this does happen.)

Sometimes it is necessary to finally remove a hose by destroying it (cutting, heat, etc) and then find a better way to reroute the hose so it can be reinstalled and maintained in the future. Sometimes the cabinetry has to be removed first. While this may sound extreme it is sometimes the very best method to use. I have spent hours futilely trying to remove or put back in a hose only to finally remove some of the cabinet and finding it pretty easy to do. Unfortunately you may have to pop out some screw cover plugs and replace them though.

If you have to replace a hose, there are some brands/models that are much more flexible than others. This is not a place to go cheap.

Good luck. I feel your pain.
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Old 11-08-2015, 10:12   #3
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

There are commercial products to remove buildup like you describe. Not my specialty, but was aware of shipyard people closing off drains and pouring a liquid into the heads and in the piping. It was explained the product would break down mostly urine buildup.
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Old 11-08-2015, 10:13   #4
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Thy are pain to get out for sure. Some use vinegar or acid to reduce the calcification build up.
Beware that the white plastic hose with the internal plastic spiral winding fails readily once you use heat on it. I forget what it's called.
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Old 11-08-2015, 14:00   #5
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

I replaced 1 of 4 head hoses this winter on a 420. IT WAS HELL! There was no cleaning it. I had to replace it and use a hair dryer to make the bends. 1 1/2" opening had closed to 1".
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Old 11-08-2015, 16:40   #6
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Couple of things to look out for, Lagoon sometimes use a smaller size hose at the Head end and then a larger size hose to connect to the Holding Tank. The size change is made at in in Line plastic housed Joker valve / NRV.
In construction these hoses are installed into the hull and held in place by Plastic ties, prior to installation of the inner moldings, so these need to be located and cut or broken to remove the hose. Attache a messenger line to the hose to enable the re running of the cleaned or renewed hose afterwards. Ensure fridge is well stocked because you will need a drink by the end of the process.
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Old 11-08-2015, 17:19   #7
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Doing some "hose" work the other day, I keep asking myself:

Why????

Why don't the hoses go on the fittings smoothly? Why do you always have to heat, force, fight and sometimes give up getting them all the way on?

Why don't they come off without cutting them, potentially cutting the barbs in the process?

I suspect if someone made hoses and fittings that actually WORKED, matched up correctly and easily, and didn't leak, the world would beat a path to their door!
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Old 12-08-2015, 09:45   #8
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

I donít have your type boat, but I have worked on my head system several times. The secret is to recognize that all the problems you have identified are what you have to deal with and solve. Plugged up pipes at sea are a bad thing. The work must be done to keep things working right.

Toilet work is a humbling experience. Welcome to the real spiritual aspect of sailing!
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Old 12-08-2015, 09:59   #9
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
This is more a question of curiosity than need, but many of my fellow cruisers every year or two remove the hose from the head to the holding tank and then proceed to swing it around or tap it against a pontoon. This removes a lot of the calcification that accumulates over time in the hoses from urine and salt water doing what they do when mixed.

We aren't having any problems but I noticed that to remove the large hose from the owners side head would be extremely difficult. First it is a large and not very malleable hose. Second it goes from the toilet through a hole not much bigger than it is, then under the fiberglass flooring of the head and then shower (of which I don't believe there is any access to actually get to), then up to the top of the tank. I can get decent access to the tank by removing the walls in the shower, but everything from there back to the hole by the toilet is inaccessible. Running a messenger line is the only option I can think of, but with a stiff hose and small hole to find it would be tricky I would think.

Have any Lagoon 380 owners out there removed the hose on the owner version in the owners head? The other one on the port side I don't think would be a problem, but the owner one looks tricky.

Interested to hear how you accomplished it.

Thanks!
WE have done it last year on L400.
Following the extreme PITA we have added a second inspection hole in the wall of the shower, above the inspection hole provided by Lagoon.
The new one is located at the top of the holding tank allowing easy access to the area where the hose descends into the holding tank top.

If your hose seems stiff, it is a sure sign that it is already being somewhat calcified. A clean hose is pliable (as ours became after treatment).
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:03   #10
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Having been tortured by sanitation hose many times, I've considered trying to design a tool to make the job of removing/replacing one easier. Perhaps a split collar with wings for manhandling and a rough interior surface to grip the hose; it could be clamped loosely on the hose end and easily removed.

Also, a pliers affair with U shaped paddles that could fit over the stem and push the hose off.

I would image anyone coming up with such a kit would have no trouble selling them.

Fair winds,

Leo
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:08   #11
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject. I wouldn't remove the hose just to clean the calcification. It should take several years to build to the point it is a problem and then it's time to replace the hose anyway.


Vinegar has no effect on calcification. See Maine Sails test on the subject.
Vinegar In The Head..? Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com
Some of the stronger products designed for this will probably help.


Raritan's Sani-Flex Hose is expensive but much easier to install than other brands of sanitation hose.
Raritan SANI-FLEX Odor Shield Hose 1-1/2"


Trident 102 is an excellent sanitation hose, cheaper than Sani-Flex but much stiffer.


PVC pipe is excellent for straight or slightly curved runs but you'll need to make the connection to toilet and tank with hose. To connect the hose to the PVC you'll need a PVC Female Adapter, a hose to pipe barb and clamps.


Some European built boats use 60 mm hose. Those boats can use Trident Ocean Flex hose in size 2-3/8". It's 60.3mm and rated for sanitation.
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Old 12-08-2015, 14:01   #12
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

#1 remember you areworking with septic waste, wear protective clothing, gloves,and a decent dust mask.
#2 get the old hose out, lay it out flat and measure it carefully!
#3 dispose of the old hose, do not reuse septic waste hose, the longer its hanging around the more chance of contamination you have! Buy a new hose the correct size.
#4 get a small sewer snake a, 10 footer, If possible run it from the valve toward the head. Check to see if you can get access to feed the hose from the head. (If not no problem, its just a little easier in the long run). Once you have the snake run so the auger end is in the head, make two holes oppocite each other about 1/4" from the end of the hose, Take a stong piece of wire long enough to allow you to take several wraps around the auger head and the feed the wires through the holes from the inside out and bring them back inside and connect them together internally. Make sure they wont slip. Now from the valve end of the snake start to pull the hose through the opening. You will ned someone to guide and feed the hose. If you have several bulkheads to go through you may need an additional person. Just keep threading until you reach the he valve.
I know it sounds torturous but we put mine in through several bulkheads in a 1/2 hour.
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Old 12-08-2015, 18:26   #13
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

In order to pull hose through blind spots I use a softwood plug that I drive into the end of the new hose. I then staple it through the hose and into the plug close to the end as I will cut this off once it's pulled. I then put a screw eye in the end of this wooden plug no attach my pulling string to it. I have replaced my hose a couple of times using this method with excellent success.
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Old 12-08-2015, 19:25   #14
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post

If you have to replace a hose, there are some brands/models that are much more flexible than others. This is not a place to go cheap.

Good luck. I feel your pain.

Practical Sailor did a lot of tests on sanitation hoses & permeability. Most were pretty good. The stand out was Raritan which is way more flexible than any other. We$t does not carry it. You will have to search on Amazon.
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Old 12-08-2015, 19:37   #15
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Re: Curious is anyone has cleaned/replaced owner toilet hose from head to tank?

It can be a hell of a job.
I just replaced a few last haul out when replacing 14 thru hulls and sea cocks. When I say "I" I lied... I paid someone else.

The messenger line goes right through the new pipe that way it helps steer it.
If it wont go one way it may go the other way.

All modern boats have the hoses installed before the liner is dumped into the hull.
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