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Old 12-07-2015, 06:21   #46
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

Recovery operation well under way then.....


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Old 12-07-2015, 06:26   #47
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

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Originally Posted by DavefromNZ View Post
The L450 manual states that the drains to the bilges from the forward and engine compartments should remain closed. I only open mine periodically to see if there is any water in one of the compartments. So far only a forward hatch leak which was easily sealed.

I would really like to know the facts as to what happened here as something as serious as this is unsettling as a Lagoon owner.


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That's interesting Dave. I was told by the handover crew to keep them open. Maybe they have changed their thought on the subject. Im not sure which makes more sense. We don't have any water accumulate in either compartment but a scenario like a blown water hose on the engine. Closed might flood the engine compartment and cause more damage, open would be dealt with by the bilge pump, the alarm should sound and notify the skipper of the problem. Best solution may be to add additional bilge pumps the compartments..
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:06   #48
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

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Originally Posted by dirkdig View Post
I like them as a safety as you can get in and out from both sides should you flip???
In this case, it doesn't look like they work that way.

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Old 12-07-2015, 07:16   #49
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

We anchored just 2 miles from this boat today. It's anchored in about 120' with 2 meter sloppy seas. We passed near to it on the way here and you can smell diesel in the water. No cruisers heard anything about this until a fellow cruiser happened on it yesterday. He was concerned people maybe trapped, so he dove on it. The main cabin windscreen is broken out and all hatches are open anf flapping. Also the headstay parted and the mast is dangling by the other shrouds. It's a sad sight.
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:35   #50
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

I wonder if all hatches includes the escape hatches? It does seem like the most likely scenario.
What is interesting is when we see similar cats flipped, they seem to float fairly high, with the bridgedeck awash. I'd assume because the hulls have trapped air. I know in the case of the Atlantic cat pictured above the crew didn't want to open the hatch for fear of allowing the water to displace the air in the hull the skipper was inside while his wife was outside for the night awaiting rescue. In the case of this L440 with a slow or fast foundering, there would be nowhere to trap air except the bow lockers. As far as the balsa core displacing enough water to float the 15T, it would appear to have little effect. Points to note include...
don't wait till it's too late to retrieve the liferaft from the transom locker.
Have a long painter available for the liferaft to try remain attached to the vessel to recover supplies and equipment if possible, and for better visibility.
Don't expect to survive in the hulls for very long unless it's overturned (possibly)
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Old 12-07-2015, 11:44   #51
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

My drain hoses are open and I have bilge alarms installed. I have thought about having selinoid shut off that can be actuated from the salon but for me it is just another thing to maintain.

For the people that wonder what the heck we are taking about,

On most Lagoon Catamarans the bow compartment and the rear engine compartment are plumbed with a hose from said compartment to the small bilge in the Center of each hull.
On the end of the hose from the compartments there is a shut off valve that will seal the compartment if the area is compromised.
The function is to allow the area to drain and gives you a chance to seal if needed, a good idea if you know it's there and an option.
Further our Catamarans have escape hatches on the underside in the form of Windows, these windows either manually open and can be left open allowing the sea to flow in or in my case are fixed closed and rely on a hammer ( supplied) to break if needed.
Most owners of these boats, me included, think that these escape hatches were open and they sailed away. On the 440 you sail from the fly bridge, 2 floors up and with no experience on how the boat sails it could fill very quickly. New Lagoons do not have the hatches that open .
If the boat was a rental it would be easy to say goodbye to the craft as it filled, if it was mine and a mistake was made you would take much different choices to save her.
Hope that clears things up.
I looked in my files for a picture of the bilge to help but found nothing. I am not on my boat right now so perhaps a fellow Lagoon owner can post, if not I will get back tonight and follow up.
For now have a look at this.Click image for larger version

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Old 12-07-2015, 12:14   #52
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

This boat didn't flip. It's simply being buoyed by it's forward airtight compartments only. It sank from the stern, and once completely submerged and full of water it will come to rest by it's "new" center of buoyancy. With the cabin and rigging weight above the original waterline, that weight rotates the boat beyond the original waterline and the boat floats inverted.

If its stern airtight compartments had not been breeched, it would be floating level or at least by one side. Clearly they were open or were the source of the original flooding.

Could have been a kicked open seacock, hitting something that knocked off a through-hull, corroded seacock giving way, etc. Plenty of ways to take on water. Would have happened to one of the hulls first, which subsequently pulled the other hull down and flooded it.

Whatever the case, neither of the aft watertight compartments on this boat did their job.
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Old 12-07-2015, 12:21   #53
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottster View Post
...
On most Lagoon Catamarans the bow compartment and the rear engine compartment are plumbed with a hose from said compartment to the small bilge in the Center of each hull.
On the end of the hose from the compartments there is a shut off valve that will seal the compartment if the area is compromised.
The function is to allow the area to drain and gives you a chance to seal if needed, a good idea if you know it's there and an option.
....
I would advise all Lagoon owners to periodically check the integrity of said shut-off valves (as is proper for any seacock).
I have found that in my boat (L400 hull # 121) the valves were seated on a metal bases glued to the fibreglass hull.
The metal bases seemed to be made of mild steel!
The bases corroded of course and the hose twisted in my hand together with the valve handle when I have tried to close/open the valve.
Our local agent replaced all four bases with new ones made of non corroding material at no cost (he felt it was not fair to ask for payment for such non-professional installation).
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Old 12-07-2015, 13:51   #54
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

I would argue that the aft engine compartments are air tight, they are not.
My engines run and the air comes from somewhere, as for the front compartments as long as everything is in good working order and everything is closed you have a much better chance.
I make a habit of opening and closing all my working valves on my boat.
I have made a list and know where they all are, I also have a list of every time I open and close them.
My hose clamps get a bi-annual tightening and yes I document that as well, electrical connections the same.
It may seem petty and some call it overkill and that my be your opinion, not mine.


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Old 12-07-2015, 17:01   #55
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

I'm wondering if the charterers saw it turn over.

If we assume they're telling the truth of what they experienced, they may have seen that, too. What an end to a holiday! Although maybe the outfit gave them another boat?

What a story!

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Old 12-07-2015, 20:10   #56
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

As promised the picture of the bilge of a @ Lagoon 400s2 hull # 315
As you can see the 2 hoses with the shut offs lead to the bilge and the pump.
Each of these hoses are connected to either the bow compartment, or the engine room.
If water comes into those areas they drain to the bilge via said hoses.
Upon a major compromise of the water tight compartments you have the responsibility to get the valve closed.
You could travel with them closed if you wanted.Click image for larger version

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Old 12-07-2015, 20:13   #57
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

Further here is a picture of my escape hatch complete with the window breaking hammer.Click image for larger version

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This is a fixed window on the new Lagoons, my window is mid ships, the 440 is a hinged porthole located much further aft.
They would need to be closed or your going down, my guess is Lagoon made the change for that reason.


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Old 12-07-2015, 20:17   #58
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

Have a look from my starboard hull looking at the port escape hatch, if that was one that could open and you were up on the fly bridge your a goner.Click image for larger version

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These hatches are very close to the waterline, underway they are 50% underwater.


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Old 12-07-2015, 21:14   #59
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

I leave the drains from the forward bows and the engine rooms open.
They are only a small drain hose and we have high water bilge alarms installed that are very loud.
We had a hose leak on the engine and it flowed into the bilge and alarm went off to alert us to the hose leak which we then fixed.
It would take a long time to fill a hull from either hose.
And being experienced you would feel the difference in the cat long before it gets to liferaft stage


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Old 13-07-2015, 01:34   #60
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Re: Charter Lagoon 440 Takes on water and flips

Had some (first hand) info. The subject Lagoon has the new escape hatches that cannot be opened but need to be broken with a hammer (like pictured in a post above) when the need arrives. A window was found broken when the first people arrived on the scene. Looks like a sea monster with a life hammer?
Wow: wonder how this makes owners with new windows feel.
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