440: Asymmetrical Sail

[YOLLATA]

Hi.

We have a L440 that came to us with an unused asymetric sail. we have had it up and it works well etc etc. It appears to be the one that Lagoon supply. Narrow shoulders on it.

My question is this.... what wind strength do people fly these up to. I realise its all about sea conditions etc but would like to hear back from the 440 community as to what they think. We have been told by one person not to sail it in over 12 knots which is a pain as the boat really gets up and goes in that type of wind with that type of sail.

Further info is that it came to us on a furler which we swapped for a cruising sock made by quantum sails. It works great and sailing with two children on board makes it easy to douse it in a hurry single handed.

Cheers

Yollata

DREAM BELIEVE CREATE SUCCEED

[dirkdig]

We use it up to 15 knots no problem,best sail on the boat.
Have had it up to 18 knots but a bit over powered.
Such a top sail on a 440

[meirriba]

The best thing to do is to try it in different condition, starting at nice weather and going up. You will find what you are comfortable with and where is the limit of your boat and crew.
Ten years ago, we have used an assymetric sail (on a 42ft monohull) during Atlantic crossing. Being without much experience how and when to use it(new sail) we have started at 10Kn of wind during dayligh only. Getting more and more experienced and bold, we have gone up to about 30Kn during the day with no problems, including night use in windspeeds of up to about 20Kn.
It is all about experience of the crew.

[GILow]

We've used ours up to 15 knots, but I would think that the real variable is relative wind speed. That 15 knots was from directly astern, if the wind had been at all toward the beam I would reduce that figure to 12 knots maximum wind speed. And I have used it on a beam reach of 10 knots and it felt overpowered.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by GILow

We've used ours up to 15 knots, but I would think that the real variable is relative wind speed. That 15 knots was from directly astern, if the wind had been at all toward the beam I would reduce that figure to 12 knots maximum wind speed. And I have used it on a beam reach of 10 knots and it felt overpowered.

It is true. However, assymetrics are not designed to sail with wind astern (running). They are designded for reaching, be it beam or broad reaching. Once you try to go lower than that, the boat basically slows down considerably.
You will make a better VMG towards a point that is directly downwind by jibing downwind in a series of broad reaches.
As you go lower, there is another point to put attention to - the mainsail starts to block the headsail. If you want to use the assymetric efficiently, you may either move the mainsail back towards the middle of its track (it will be less efficient but the gain from the assymetric will be larger than the loss from inefficient mainsail) or consider taking the main down completely.
This involves different discussion of the rig safety of sailing on cat with no mainsail (as a cat lacks backstay). It can be solved by puting high pressure on the mainsail sheet against the topping lift.

[Amnesia II]

Dead downwind or near....nothing beats a poled out jib windward side + assymetric sheeted through the swung out main boom end( no main up) on the other.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Amnesia II

Dead downwind or near....nothing beats a poled out jib windward side + assymetric sheeted through the swung out main boom end( no main up) on the other.

This is certainly a nice solution for long legs. However, you need:
A pole
Attachment point (or track) on the mast
Guys/lazy sheets for the pole and deck gear for them
This makes this solution somewhat cumbersome/more expensive, and as I have mentioned above, suitable in my opinion only for a lengthy cruise with long legs downwind.

[2Wind]

Second Wind has a 155sqm ASI in sock. In light wind under 8kts it can fly up to 75 app. As the wind strengthens one must bear away due to helming, prodder stress and leeward drift. I find 15kts the comfortable limit on a reach but would generally use the screecher for that combination in any case as one is generally making 9+kts SOG with the more easily managed sail. On a deeper reach 120-160 app the sail is magic! Previously when set fractionally on the screecher halyard it needed the one reef in the main for air flow/blanketing reasons when running deep but now with a masthead halyard this is not required. Ive used it comfortably on several occasions in winds to 25 kts. It does take a little time to gather the confidence to use it due to its size in such conditions. Dousing in these conditions does require a near down wind course with the main providing the blanket. With a two enthusiastic crew it gets used but when short handed with say one to help i get lazy unless its going to be up for hours. Using it overnight takes confidence, which comes from experience with it. Have fun.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by meirriba

It is true. However, assymetrics are not designed to sail with wind astern (running). They are designded for reaching, be it beam or broad reaching. Once you try to go lower than that, the boat basically slows down considerably.
You will make a better VMG towards a point that is directly downwind by jibing downwind in a series of broad reaches.
As you go lower, there is another point to put attention to - the mainsail starts to block the headsail. If you want to use the assymetric efficiently, you may either move the mainsail back towards the middle of its track (it will be less efficient but the gain from the assymetric will be larger than the loss from inefficient mainsail) or consider taking the main down completely.
This involves different discussion of the rig safety of sailing on cat with no mainsail (as a cat lacks backstay). It can be solved by puting high pressure on the mainsail sheet against the topping lift.

Ah, that may indicate that I am doing it a bit wrong... though I did get quite good results in light airs with the main out to one side and the MPS out to the other. The wind spilling from the main seemed to keep the MPS (asym) set very nicely, and the helm was balanced and responsive.

I have started reading a bit about the process of tacking downwind, but I confess I am still coming to grips with it. The problem of being the sort of lazy sailor that I am is that I have never paid much attention to performance. I am starting to learn that it is more important to cruising boats than I had expected.

Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Amnesia II

Dead downwind or near....nothing beats a poled out jib windward side + assymetric sheeted through the swung out main boom end( no main up) on the other.

That trick with the boom sounds very neat, I'll give it a try, though so far the MPS (Asym) has behaved well without it.

Don't have a whisker pole at the moment, but I am shopping for one.

Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by meirriba

This involves different discussion of the rig safety of sailing on cat with no mainsail (as a cat lacks backstay). It can be solved by puting high pressure on the mainsail sheet against the topping lift.

I never noticed that cats lack backstays. I must look more carefully next time I am at the club.

I would have thought it was actually easier to have two backstays, one to each hull, but there must be some reason this is not good...? I kind of subscribe to the theory of the more things holding the mast up the better, though I concede that windage becomes an issue as some point.

Matt

[2Wind]

Wiith a boom that extends well aft, often with a significant cockpit "roof", there is frequently insufficent clearance for a backstay on most cruising cats. So the wide traveller and main sheet effectively take this role in combination with slightly backward swept stays/shrouds set in a triangular fashion. An effective compromise but it does limit one's capacity to let the boom out wide down wind as the battons impact the shrouds at a more shallow angle. Everything is a compromise,

[Roy M]

"Tacking" downwind is actually jibing, and I find it's pretty easy with my asymetric. I just lead the "lazy sheet" FORWARD of the headstay. To jibe, you simply let the active sheet out until the sail is flapping downwind, jibe the main without distraction, then pull in the new active sheet, which pulls the now lazy sheet forward of the headstay. Then douse with the sock when you have had enough fun. It's my favorite single-handing sail.

[YOLLATA]

Cheers everyone. Good points. We will definitely be hoping for a nice easterly in a month or so when we leave panama for Central America so I hope it's an asymmetrical kinda run. Look after yourselves and thanks again.

[AussieWayne]

Enjoy that sail Yollata. May it fill with a gentle easterly all the way across.