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Old 11-09-2014, 06:39   #1
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ARC2014

38 cats entered for the ARC2014, among them 8 Lagoon 450! Complete list in sheet 1, multihulls in sheet 2
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Old 11-09-2014, 23:33   #2
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Re: ARC2014

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38 cats entered for the ARC2014, among them 8 Lagoon 450! Complete list in sheet 1, multihulls in sheet 2
Interesting. L450 is seriously nice.

Went with our L450 in the ARC 2012. Met some people from "Easy Rider" Vision 440 then. Earlier this year I helped a friend bring his L450 from Annapolis to Grenada. About 200 miles south of Bermuda we saw a boat going north. Talked to them on VHF. Turned out it was "Easy Rider" from the ARC 2012. Gave them some weather info from our fresh GRIB as they were heading into a significant wind direction shift.
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Old 30-11-2014, 08:40   #3
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Re: ARC2014

ARC+: Boats nearing St. Lucia, the L620 is leading the Outremer 51's, all Catanas and the FP Victoria (slightly). A L450 is leading on handicap. The engine hours may change it all, when they have finished.
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Old 30-11-2014, 10:07   #4
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Re: ARC2014

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ARC+: Boats nearing St. Lucia, the L620 is leading the Outremer 51's, all Catanas and the FP Victoria (slightly). A L450 is leading on handicap. The engine hours may change it all, when they have finished.
It seems that you forgot to say that besides having a lot of performance multihulls on the ARC+ the fleet is leaded by monohulls, a Cigale 18 and a Jeanneau 57, both smaller than the L620.

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Old 30-11-2014, 13:12   #5
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Re: ARC2014

I posted this in the Lagoon/multihulls thread.....
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Old 30-11-2014, 13:22   #6
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Re: ARC2014

ARC says very little about the real performance of the boats..
1-not every boat is taking the race seriously. Some are pushing the boats to their limits while others are fishing, not using spinneaker, etc..
2-some boats are lucky or knowlegeable enouıgh to find the right winds while some others cannot..
3-engine hours handicaps are not realistic, there are boats that can do 10 kts under engine whilst others can only make 7 kts..

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Old 01-12-2014, 00:47   #7
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Re: ARC2014

I did'nt write faster, I wrote leading. There can be a large number of reasons, that the " heavy condomarans with fat hulls and no daggerboards" are leading (for a moment). I wont list them ;-)
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:43   #8
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Re: ARC2014

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Originally Posted by django37 View Post
I posted this in the Lagoon/multihulls thread.....
I look at the posts on new posts and I don't care were the post is made if the subject interests me and as you probably know I am running a thread regarding the ARC. Saying this I am not a guy that does not like multihulls or prefer monohulls overMultihulls. There are types of monohulls I don't like and types of cats that I don't like.

I don't like when the monohull crowd says stupid things about cats and I don't like when the multihull crowd has a distorted vision regarding the performance of cats regarding monohulls while cruising, kind of "for the same size a fast cruising cat is faster then a monohull". Most of the time it depends on the cat or on the monohull but the fastest cruising cats, like the Outremer have about the same cruising speed performance of the fastest cruising monohulls of the same size, or at least is that what I have seen on many ARC and this one is not different.

Being the cat or the monohull well sailed, for similar types has more importance than being a cat or a monohull. Note that I am talking about modern boats and light ones. Those are way faster then old shoes as well as the cats.

I was not here to say crap about the cats regarding monohulls but discuss the performance of both alike on the ARC+ that has some interesting results being for me the most revealing the performance of the two big "Condo cats", the Lagoon 620 and the Fountain Pajot 67. They show that with size a big heavy cat like that one can have a similar performance of a light performance cat of 50ft. Many cases there, from the Catana 50 to the several brand new Outremer 51.

I would say that surprised me. that is a thing that does not happen on monohulls, were a fast light performance cruiser like a Xp 44 (that is sailing near the 50ft cats) will just smoke any middle weight monohull of 55ft.

Regarding the general performance of the cats I would say that was a good one but it seems that many performance cats choose this rally over the bigger ARC while very few performance mono-hulls chose this one, in fact only two and one of them badly sailed (a First 45 that cannot go away from an old medium weight Bowman 48). The monohulls on the rally are almost all medium weight "bluewater" boats, so I guess that on the ARC we will have more to compare.

Anyway regarding the two big heavy cats, they were considerably slower than the two big light monohulls of about the same size (the Cigale has already finished) and the 50 light performance cats seems to go at the same pace of the over 60ft heavy cats and just a bit faster than a smaller 44ft monohull performance cruiser and they are all way ahead of all medium weight "bluewater" monohulls, even the new ones (and fast regarding their type) like an Amel 55 or a Malo 47.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:56   #9
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Re: ARC2014

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ARC says very little about the real performance of the boats..
1-not every boat is taking the race seriously. Some are pushing the boats to their limits while others are fishing, not using spinneaker, etc..
2-some boats are lucky or knowlegeable enouıgh to find the right winds while some others cannot..
3-engine hours handicaps are not realistic, there are boats that can do 10 kts under engine whilst others can only make 7 kts..

Cheers

Yeloya
That's why I am just looking to the well sailed cats and monos and not to a Lagoon 52, a Nautitech 40 or a Lagoon 380 that are way slower then a well sailed Halberg Rassy 37 that is very near of a Lagoon 450.

This is not a race. The ones that wanted to do some racing would have chose the ARC were the competition is more serious. This are just cruising sailors having fun on a crossing. Nobody wants to be left behind. I have posted some photos of the crew of that very fast Cigale having fun, eating well and fishing...not a racing attitude and if the fastest are not racing I presume the others are not racing too.

Regarding engine hours, that we will see on the end results, the boats that go faster on engine will waste more diesel (bigger engines) so in the end things get compensated. Regarding engine handicaps I don't give a dam. I am interested in real times and real boat performance, not in paper performance, I am also interested in the real number of hours that they had run the engine and I can make my own mats in what concerns that
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Old 01-12-2014, 07:06   #10
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Re: ARC2014

Hi Polux,

As I've already said, ARC is not a good basis of comparison for the reasons I've already mentioned. I did the Atlantic twice, I sailed a bit of everyting, Outremer, Catana , Gunboat, etc as well as many FP and Lagoon's. To a lesser extend I've also sailed some monohulls and raced for a while. Among the ones I've been to the fastest was Farr 76 , the rest being X 41 and slower mono's like Jeanneau, Benetteau's of different sizes.
My experience is that (apple to apple) same size and type (cruiser to cruiser, racer to racer) and for the same water length, cats are 10 to 25 % faster depending on sea state, AWA and wind force.
The same was confirmed by the GB 62 skipper that I had met. He said "we were never overtaken in any race by a monohull shorter than us, including Volvo 60".
Here for obvious reason we shouldn't compare Xp 44 to FP Helia 44 or Outremer 49 to Jeanneau 49.
When it comes to boats like Lagoon 62, Victoria 67, etc., in trade wind conditions (2 kts of current + 18-20 kts wind from behind, they are able to do 6 kts with bare poles with their huge windage
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:25   #11
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Re: ARC2014

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It seems that you forgot to say that besides having a lot of performance multihulls on the ARC+ the fleet is leaded by monohulls, a Cigale 18 and a Jeanneau 57, both smaller than the L620.

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Just stumbled across this thread and as someone who took part in the ARC+ 2014, I thought you might like my view. The ARC+ is generally not a race, the reason those 50 boats entered the ARC+ and not the ARC is because (presumably) they all wanted to visit Cape Verde because they are cruisers. Having said that, the fleet is still made up of all sorts of boats and aspirations.

The Cigale 18 and Jenneau 57, whilst no doubt having a great time and fishing whilst crossing, were definitely racing. They spent a lot of time preparing their boats in Mindelo, they had all the fancy black laminate sails, they were fully crewed and stated that they were most definitely trying to cross the finish line first. Incidentally, the Cigale 18 had professional crew.

The cats, whilst certainly also trying to sail quickly and efficiently, were cruising. The Lagoon 62 had an 8 month old baby and an 82 year old on board, some of them had just husband and wife teams board. The Jeanneau declared 22 hours motoring at the finish, and I think if any of the leading cats had motored all those hours when the wind went light they would have finished ahead of the Jeanneau 57. Just to balance that, the FP Victoria 67 declared a staggering 67 hours of motoring, in lighter winds that thing just wont go. They motored because they had to get to the Antigua Charter show, they stopped in St Lucia for one night only. Had they not motored they might have missed it completely! Sorry LIR if you're reading, nice guys though.

What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing. You can't use the ARC results to measure anything other than perhaps light cats are usually faster than heavy bilge keelers. Oh, and that the handicap results are a complete joke.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:05   #12
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Re: ARC2014

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Just stumbled across this thread and as someone who took part in the ARC+ 2014, I thought you might like my view. The ARC+ is generally not a race, the reason those 50 boats entered the ARC+ and not the ARC is because (presumably) they all wanted to visit Cape Verde because they are cruisers. Having said that, the fleet is still made up of all sorts of boats and aspirations.

The Cigale 18 and Jenneau 57, whilst no doubt having a great time and fishing whilst crossing, were definitely racing. They spent a lot of time preparing their boats in Mindelo, they had all the fancy black laminate sails, they were fully crewed and stated that they were most definitely trying to cross the finish line first. Incidentally, the Cigale 18 had professional crew.

The cats, whilst certainly also trying to sail quickly and efficiently, were cruising. The Lagoon 62 had an 8 month old baby and an 82 year old on board, some of them had just husband and wife teams board. The Jeanneau declared 22 hours motoring at the finish, and I think if any of the leading cats had motored all those hours when the wind went light they would have finished ahead of the Jeanneau 57. Just to balance that, the FP Victoria 67 declared a staggering 67 hours of motoring, in lighter winds that thing just wont go. They motored because they had to get to the Antigua Charter show, they stopped in St Lucia for one night only. Had they not motored they might have missed it completely! Sorry LIR if you're reading, nice guys though.

What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing. You can't use the ARC results to measure anything other than perhaps light cats are usually faster than heavy bilge keelers. Oh, and that the handicap results are a complete joke.
I don't agree with you. Nobody buys a brand new Outremer 51 if one does not like to sail fast and the ones that buys that type of boat certainly will try to do a passage on a competitive time. The type of sailor that buy performance boats (monohulls or cats alike) would hate to be beaten by not performance monohulls on a crossing.

On that crossing (ARC+) there were 2 brand new Outremer 51 (with a very similar performance) a Catana 50 and a Catana 471 all performance cats that indicate sailors that like to sail fast and that will try to sail fast. Contrary to that nobody that likes to race will do that on a Cigale or on a Jeanneau 57 that are not performance sailboats. One is an aluminium voyage boat the other one is a mass production main market cruiser. Off course I am not saying that they were not well sailed but were clearly not raced at least in what Is normally called racing.

Regarding the number of hours having influence on the results in what concerns the two first monohulls that beat all the cats I don’t understand the logic in what regards the voyage monohull (Cigale 60). The two Outremer 51 used the engine for 5.3hours and 9.2h, the Catana 50 for 8.3h, the Catana 471 for 15.6h, the Lagoon 620 for 0 hours (and that shows a racing spirit). The Cigale 16 (3.6h) used less engine hours then all the cats, except the Lagoon 620 and the Jeanneau 57 used 21.50 hours.

Would those 21.50 hours of engine use on the Jeanneau 57 allowed the bigger Lagoon 620 to arrive first (and even some of the other cats), I think so but anyway the Lagoon 620 is a bigger boat and the others where performance cats while the Jeanneau 57 is just a main market mass production monohull. Anyway the point regarding the Jeanneau 57 and racing is that nobody that uses the engine so extensively is racing but cruising, contrary to the Lagoon (0 hours on the engine). That racing spirit on the Lagoon is confirmed by the very good results he got on compensated time, even among the other cats.

Regarding monohulls sailed on the ARC+ you can see by the low number of engine hours the ones that were sailed with a racing spirit. You have the Lagoon 620, some of the cats and the much smaller XP44 performance cruiser that managed to lose less than 24 hours to the much bigger Lagoon 620 and arrived close to the other leading cats and ahead of two on the leading pack, an Outremer 51 and a Catana 471, both performance cats. The XP 44 only used the engine for half an hour so it is also probable that without the huge difference in engine hours use, regarding all the bigger cats that were ahead (with exception of the Lagoon 620), the Xp44 would have certainly arrived ahead of some of those.

Fact is that I am not the only one that I have been looking to the comparative performance of these boats (monos and multihulls alike). If you look at the ratings given to the boats you will see that the boat that was better sailed (raced) was the Lagoon 620 and that all the boats were not far from what their rating allowed (the bigger the faster).

Alubat Cigale 18 - 1.302
Lagoon 620 USA 1.197
Outremer 51 - 1.165
Outremer 51 - 1.165
Jeanneau 57 - 1.154
XP-44 GER 1.117
Catana 50 - 1.089
Catana 471 - 1.072

As you can see the arrival order (if we discount engine hours) is very close to the rating of each boat with the single exception of one of the Outremer 51 that was clearly not as well sailed (but not as badly also). I don’t believe in coincidences so I would say that yes, those performances on the ARC are meaningful, as well as the ratings attributed to the boats (in a global way).

So, why keep posting, well, to learn more and to take away some wrong notions like the ones expressed by some that say that generically size for size for the same length on an Atlantic crossing Cats are 10 to 25% faster. Reality and the ratings associated with that don’t show that. Of course, I am only talking about modern boats and what I have found out is that size by size you have to look to each boat and look at the boat ratings. They are very different between different monohulls and different cats.

Regarding fast Monohulls I am not talking about stripped down monohull racers , the Cigale 60 is a voyage boat and the XP 44 is a performance cruiser with a great cruising interior (there is one circumnavigating right now on the World ARC). The Xp 44 is not a carbon boat, it has a similar rating to other fast performance cruisers (mass production boats) and as you can see it has a rating bigger then a Catana 50, a Catana 471 and slightly smaller than the one of an Outremer 51, all considerably bigger performance cats, but most of all the results show that rating in what regards the ARC are meaningful.

Off course if this was mostly an upwind passage we would see the rating of that XP44 going up probably over the Outremer 51 because those are the conditions were the XP 44 is a killer machine while the downwind conditions are the ones where cats find their better performance.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:24   #13
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Re: ARC2014

That's fine, not a problem at all. I just thought the forum might have appreciated a bit of input from one of the actual rally participants that had shared a beer which each and everyone of the skippers of the boats you mentioned (except the XP44) and others that you didn't, at different times before and after the event.

For what its worth, I would say that the boat with the most high tech kit and the most focused mindset to cross the line first was the Jeanneau 57 followed very closely by the Cigale 18 (which was beautiful by the way). I can also tell you, categorically, that one of the Outremer 51s and the Catana 50 (me obviously) did not fly a down wind sail all the way because we find them too stressful and reefed down every night. The most amazing cat from my perspective was the Vayager 440 which simply put up a code zero on one side, the main on the other and sailed the rumb line. That boat went far quicker than anyone would have given it credit for before the start of the rally on both legs.
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Old 03-02-2015, 15:24   #14
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Re: ARC2014

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I don't agree with you. Nobody buys a brand new Outremer 51 if one does not like to sail fast and the ones that buys that type of boat certainly will try to do a passage on a competitive time. The type of sailor that buy performance boats (monohulls or cats alike) would hate to be beaten by not performance monohulls on a crossing.
Polux,

It's clear to me that you don't want to understand but I will try anyway..With the exception of invitational and racing classes, the rest of the ARC is just a joke..
If someone buys an Outremer it doens't mean necessarily that he is a racer or he is in a racing mood all the time. This doesn't mean also that all of the Outremer owners are skilled sailors and or doesn't have a wife or guests who get sea sick.. Moreover, Outremers are very sensitive to load, if you overload a bit, she will be slower than light FP..
The routes that each boat is taking can make huge differences, that's a kind of gamble; some are luckier, some less. A slower boat that finds better wind (both in speed and direction) can be faster than normally much faster boats.
Ratings are just rubbish.. So are the handicaps of motoring.. you say that more poverful engine will be handicapped by extra weight. This is not true.. I have two Helia from FP one with 55HP the other with 40 HP. The weight difference in between them is 63 kg. On 13 tons boat(loaded) this is nothing and I know that under similar conditions 55 HP boat is 1,5-2 kts faster under engine.

Some boats are carrying too much water to play safe or because they don't have a water maker whilst others do carry only drinking water. This alone makes more than 1 ton of difference which is huge if you compare to the increased weight of engines.

The same apply to the boat with or w/out genset. If you don't have a genset you need to run the engine even if you need the push..You will even run more engine if you don't have solar panel and or not careful with power management on board.

The same stupidity do exist in monohulls section as well; the route is basically down wind sailing all the way. The boats that are not very good upwind but good with the winds aft the beam are favorised. If you raced for a while and you know these two boats, you will know that in light winds and upwind Xp 44 will turn aroun the J 57. J 57 will only emerge in stronger breezes thx to her length. (remember that most of J 57 comes up with furling main and dacron sails whilst Xp 44 are mostly with laminated fancy sails and a huge battened main..) Under ARC conditions, J 57 is clearly fovorised against Xp 44 which has only half a day correction over 18 days of passage on J 57.

Yes, I have said that under similar conditions the cats are 15-20 % faster than the monos. This was the statement of Jeanneau and Fountaine Pajot dealer in Anneapolis who imported hundreds of boat each year from the other site of the Atlantic and who registered all the delivery times for the passage.. He cannot be biased because he's selling both; cat and mono..My experience is exactly the same.

Polux, I did the Atlantic twice both ways, I know the conditions pretty well. If you still say that ARC results are significative, I have nothing else to say..

Good luck..

Yeloya
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:22   #15
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Re: ARC2014

Yeloya

I think that more or less sums up what I was trying to saying but you put it better. I honestly think I could repeat the exercise and cross the line first if that was what we set out to do. How's that for a bold statement!
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