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Old 26-07-2016, 00:31   #1
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Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

I purchased a new 2016 450S from Simpson Marine Phuket. However the boat was brought into Singapore by ship from France, used at the Singapore boat show.
It was agreed I would do handover in Singapore then sail her to Phuket.
1. The boat has been paid for for over a month. It was struck by lighting and Lagoon need time to ship parts and do repairs. I asked if I came a few days early, if I could stay on the boat, do some shopping etc. I was told no must do handover first to look for scratches etc. I said ok that is reasonable. Then I asked if the bottom would be cleaned and inspected as it was shipped and has been in the water in the marina 4 to 5 months. I would like to make sure no damage had been done in that time and in the shipping process. They feel that is unreasonable.
2. I asked that we take her out, run her up under power. Sails up & down full system check with a tech on board. They said can't leave the marina. They say because of Singapore laws. I said up to them to obtain a day permit or whatever it takes. They say unreasonable.
Looking for others that have went through handover, what is responsible and unreasonable.
Thanks

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Old 26-07-2016, 00:48   #2
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Singapore will not let a vessel exit the marina for any local trip without local masters qualifications - regardless off what other qualifications the master holds. My RYA ones were no good. You also need an AIS
Singapore is very pedantic about their rules.
You are not being unreasonable. You need a competent surveyor to check the boat, especially the hulls and structure, particularly around the chainplates. Best out of the water for this. Look for anything near any metal fittings, and pinholes around the chainplates. Electrical system as well.


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Old 26-07-2016, 02:43   #3
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

The boat has Full B&G package including AIS. I would guess that Simpson Marine Singapore has a Qualified tech to meet Singapore rules. I think possibly it comes down to Phuket tech that is doing handover doesn't. Possibly they don't want to request Singapore Simpson Marine for assistance. I gather Singapore was not all that excited when Phuket sold the only in stock 450S in Asia. But that is a presumption.
So the next question is do most folks that purchase a new Lagoon pay for a qualified surveyor including a haul out before they except the boat?

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Old 26-07-2016, 02:56   #4
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Would doubt that. However, the cost of a surveyor would be really cheap compared to accepting the boat then finding a bunch of issues due to the lightening. They can be structural, and they can cost a LOT. Have the electronics been checked by a knowledgeable tech? When the boat was struck, was there obvious damage, and if so, what?


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Old 26-07-2016, 03:19   #5
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Guess I didn't expect I would need to go through the process of hiring a independent surveyor for a new lagoon had thought that lagoon did a good job standing behind their product. No matter the dealer. But guess I would be curious if anyone out there. Had a recommendation for a good and honest boat Surveyor near One°15 Marina Singapore.

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Old 26-07-2016, 03:40   #6
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Hmm, sounds like it's taken quite a hit. The lightening must have come out somewhere, I'd want to find where. I'd also want ALL the electronics replaced. Just because they work now does not mean they are OK, and they may fail prematurely because of the strike. Cats are more prone to exit issues around the chain plates - due to the mast not having a direct route from base to water , so current often exits thru cap shrouds and chainplates.
I'd think you are in a position for re-negotiation at least, or even for a replacement vessel - it was not delivered, and you paid for a boat in new condition. Tell them you won't accept it without a satisfactory survey from a reputable surveyor appointed by you, and paid for by them. Their insurance should pay I would think...
Bad luck, but also the malacca strait is one of the most lightening struck regions in the world, and cats seem to be more prone to strikes than monos.
Good luck.
Matt


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Old 26-07-2016, 04:02   #7
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Neptune Gear's advice regarding requesting a new vessel is sound. Obviously the vendor will not be pleased but the boat should be covered by insurance, if not then that was a poor decision by the vendor but not having insurance in this situation is highly unusually. If their approach is too "self-insure" well guess they get to file a claim on their own behalf.

Regardless, the vessel is of lesser value than you negotiated. It can take a year or two before lightning damage reveals itself so no way to ensure yourself against these concerns if accepting vessel now. And your insurance may want to exclude any resulting damage or worse not insure the vessel.

Your gut is attempting to prevent a major error from occurring. Listen to your gut.

Reflect back on why you made the purchase decision that you did. The pitfalls of accepting the vessel will all fall on you once you've accepted. You obviously wanted to buy a new boat, one reason probably is it's condition. Require a new vessel.
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Old 26-07-2016, 04:36   #8
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

I don't known how much direct experience the above posters have. I had a hunter 460 hit on fresh water.

Lighting "may" come out near the chain plates or it "may" follow any conductive path even horizontally for many meters before contouring the path to ground. It can jump from area to area as it makes up its path. This can include electrical wires, water tanks, bilge water etc. you may have tiny black exit holes all around the water line as we did. You may notice indicators of lighting around the sail drives. It can be almost anywhere and impact almost anything.


I consulted with a guy from Florida named ewin mcgregor. I think his web site is marine Lightning. He is as expert as they come.


If the responsibility of the boat was in the care of the dealer, I would make lots of demands re extensive investigation. If it's insured, I would make the same demands .


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Old 26-07-2016, 04:53   #9
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

You bought a new boat. Demand away or demand your money back.


They should pay for a surveyor appointed by you to address lighting strike and it would be entirely reasonable to demand new electronics (don't forget engine and other electronic devices). Electronic issues often show up months later with lightning strikes.


If you agreed to let them use the boat for the show as part of the purchase deal, its you problem to clean the bottom for inspection...except for the lighting strike. They need to demonstrate that it hasn't caused damages and that can require them to clean any growth off so your surveyor has a clear view of the bottom.
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Old 26-07-2016, 05:12   #10
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Once the cheque clears you will be on your own,the factory will not be interested and refer you to the dealer,who is already hiding behind shadows on this one.
Full check with extended warranty on this one or they can keep it.


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Old 26-07-2016, 05:22   #11
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Get it hauled out and surveyed, but also focus on either getting all the electricals replaced, or negotiate a significant refund because this is now a project boat. You hadn't taken delivery so the risk of loss remains with them.
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Old 26-07-2016, 05:28   #12
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

Mike when was the boat hit by lightening and at what stage in the purchasing process did you find out about it? Either way I would be getting a surveyor and probably a marine electrician in check the boat over. Your list of issues should be made in writing. The surveyor can tell you if it's reasonable to lift and inspect a boat after a lightening strike.

Simpson can easily get the boat out for a day sail in singapore and they should do this as part of the owner orientation for all new boats. Deal with the broker you purchased the boat off and if that doesn't work tell him you aren't happy and you would like to discuss with Mike Simpson.

If you are at One15 find Al Dow on the grey steel trawler in the N/E corner of the marina. He is a top bloke knows everyone there including at least one L450 owner.

Good luck


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Old 26-07-2016, 05:47   #13
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

I had a friend buy a new boat from a dealer. He took possession in the water and never had a survey. 2 years later he found out the reason it was in the water was it was used in a boating TV show. During filming they had a hard grounding. They never properly repaired the keel damage. He found out when he hauled the boat.


I'm a little surprised you paid in full months prior to taking delivery. You kind of handed over your bargaining position.
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Old 26-07-2016, 06:24   #14
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

I do not think I would accept the boat. Too much at risk and since they are not fully cooperating just ask for another boat!
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Old 26-07-2016, 07:42   #15
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Re: Am I being unreasonable concerning handover of new 450S

John,
I made the deal on the boat about the 15th of June. I was traveling and needed time. Before I could take delivery. I knew the boat had been struck. They needed time to deal with it. In the contract I had them input that the boat must be 100% functioning and all systems checked out or I was to receive a 100% refund plus expenses. The boat was owned by Lagoon Corp. Not Simpson. As per some agreement for the boat show. I requested to be informed of all work orders and progress, which has not happen. 3 days after I made my deposit I requested that I felt I had made a poor decision in buying a boat with lighting damage even though I believe I received somewhat of what I thought was a good price. They refused to let me out. I was told the Lagoon Corp was personally involved. Hind sight is always 20/20. I want the boat and am excited. I am just asking them to take it out and give it a good test. Pull it out of the water and clean the haul. When they started to give me a hassel and tell me I was being unreasonable I became more concerned.
Please understand this is not Simpson Marine Singapore. I have had no contact with them other then when I met them when I viewed the boat.
I was not planning to be in Singapore until the 7th. But I will move forward to find a qualified surveyor and or electrician to help me out. I paid in full as I agreed to have it paid for by July 30 with the euro down I also saved and have tried to stay positive and look forward to enjoying my new boat and cruising. Once again hindsight 20/20. Once again I am not in Singapore if anyone has a contact I would appreciate it. I can only move forward and refuse taking delivery until I am 100% sure it has been handled to the best of abilities. If something comes up I have a solid legal clause to be refunded. But I can image the battle that would be. If it gets worse I will do as suggested to call Mike Simpson. I have heard good and fair things of him along with Lagoon.

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