440: 440 Sailing with Jib only and no Main Sail

[levm]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

RE post # 10, how do you set up to furl both sails at once?

1 swivel with both sail headboards?, 2 swivels stacked on sails with 2 different luff lengths, and 2 halyards?

I'm trying to picture this setup.
I have sailed on a rig with 2 sail skins sharing 1 luff tape.

Each sail had it furling system

[oos_ya_daddy]

I have now had writen confirmation from Lagoon that the Genoa can not be used with more that 1 reef in the main. I will copy and paste this in later.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by oos_ya_daddy

I have now had writen confirmation from Lagoon that the Genoa can not be used with more that 1 reef in the main. I will copy and paste this in later.

In our L450 reefing instructions, Lagoon tells us to use no main and a 3rd reef genoa for a true wind angle 75-130 degrees and 45+ knots wind. I just talked to a professional skipper here in Las Palmas who said that he sailed a 450 through 40+ knots wind in 8m waves down wind and she behaved much better with just a "sliver" of genoa than with a 3rd reef main.

I assume the dynamic forces on the pre-bent mast, with the middle section bulging forward, and tons of compression force from the shrouds, could make the middle of the mast buckle forward when slamming repeatetly into heavy seas. I don't see a problem running with with genoa only and just the occasional slamming under the bridge deck or on the side of the hulls.

[rtbates]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

You are correct and i agree. Cats don't have backstay's the issue here is keeping the mast on board, the mainsheet tight with topping lift/halyard to end of boom helps with this.

Fitting some running back stays probably adjacent to the jib halyard turning block also may help. But we are talking of tradewind sailing here not afternoon jaunts...
Cheers

NO BACKSTAY? That just ain't right..haha...BUT I do see your problem..

[oos_ya_daddy]

Not sure what is included in a L450 but we have a staysail on the L560. This is not something I am experienced with but does seem to work well.

[Angels of Rio]

Originally Posted by oos_ya_daddy
I have now had writen confirmation from Lagoon that the Genoa can not be used with more that 1 reef in the main. I will copy and paste this in later

Did Lagoon give a reason in the written verification as to why you can not use the gib with less than 1 reef in the main??

Nige

[Lagoon4us]

I think a 'Forrester Bridle' could be rigged up to support the stick aft in conjunction with the topping lift sheeted in hard by the mainsheet winch.

It is simply a twin sheet joined at one end to a ring and hauled to the masthead by the unused main halyard, a sheet is then taken to either side of the cats hulls aft to say a spinnaker turning block/heavy cleat etc fastened then tension is hauled by the main halyard.

This gives a wide angle base for mast support and allows more confidence, nowadays it can be improved by using low stretch ropes..

You are only endeavouring to keep the mast in place not bend the mast as a Cat's mast is basically a column that has pre bend induced by the diamonds to keep it ridgid.

Personally we will do this as all posts of experienced Lagoon sailors who have crossed oceans have had no issues...

[Ledouxjj]

OK, I bought hull #11 a 2004 in Florida then took it through the canal back up the West coast to home port of Vancouver, Washington on the Columbia river. On the way around I lost the main sail so coordinated a New main and Leisurefurl Boom install in San Diego. Since September 11 have been heading West by South along the Americas, Galapagos, French Polynesia, Cooks, Tonga and now in New Zealand.


I have found the furling boom a blessing and a problem. The blessing is it only takes one person to furl and it can be reefed at each batton. The problem is it's weight. I find myself preventing from the midship cleats which is not such a good spot. It has lifted the deck near the cleat which lets water into the hull. The fastening of the cleat is designed for sheer not lift, therin lies the problem. Having it resealed and adding a chain plate a foot forward of the cleat to use as the preventer tie point. I have also found that I attache the preventer under any point of sail because the action of the boom in less than 20 knots of wind caused alot of stress on the mainsheet travelers. Have noticed some small stress cracks on the upper deck where it attaches at the helm station. That I believe is from the boom banging out against the traveler.

I will also be using the new chain plates to provide a tweeker line to the Genoa sheets for better down wind performance. So far I have tied a loose sheet at the clew and have taken it down to a block at the midship cleat and back to the sheet winch. I saw the tweeker idea on a Leopard and it worked great.

I have flown my asym less the 5% of the time in the trades. So do wing on wing with either the Genoa and the main or a screecher. Had to put my screecher away because I had it cut mast high and there is just too much play in the mast from the shrouds up so having it re-cut for the fractional attachement.

Since I am the third owner of this hull, I got very little Lagoon sailing info so have found the following sight to be quite helpful for sailing the 440. www.twixter.us/sailtrim/sailtrim.htm

John - SV ORCINIUS

[Lagoon4us]

Similarly our 'Profurl' is heavy as well, we rig a similar preventer keeping it tight.

This encouraged our thoughts with the twin headsails on the same foil using the same halyard, popping them to run down or tacking them inside each other and furl.
We have ordered them and cannot wait to try out early spring.

Have also done the line to tweak and am thinking of putting a soft shell snatch block there on a lanyard..

I also need to look at boom brakes to slow gybes down with the boom weight.

Cheers

[Ledouxjj]

I don't know if a boom brake is really the answer. I had a big one on my Jenneau 43 and although it worked, I don't know if it is sufficient for the weight of our boom.

We actually gybe by first tuning more onto the wind (beamy) while bringing in the main by the sheet and the traveler then once the main is near mid ship we make the turn for the gybe and let out the traveler and the sheet. Makes for a pretty soft gybe. I am always trying to find ways to make the changes easy on the rigging.

As I said, we have a preventer on the boom in any point of sail. Once we have the chain plates installed I plan on using a 3 or 5 to 1 fiddle block with a large rubber snubber in line between the plate and the mid boom shackle. Using a fiddle block with rope clutch will allow me to pull in the tension and take up the shock with the snubber thereby reducing the main from hammering on every wave.

If we fly wing on wing with the screacher and genoa we usually have a tripple reefed main sheeted amid ship down hard. It also helps keep the boat heading down wind and not wollowing back and forth. Twin head sails on the same foil sounds interesting but I don't think I would like that much sail on the foil all the time and it would seem a pain to pull it down and put you back in the old hanked on position. With the screacher and genoa you can slipp to one tack or the other by meerely furling in the windward sail.

SV ORCINIUS

[Lagoon4us]

Lagoon's instructions for reefing state "100% Genoa with two reefs in the mainsail is totally banned".

Looking at the rig i can see the main, without a solid supporting vang, could put a lot of load on the section below the aft stay's connection point whilst a full headsail would increase the bending moment fore and aft by loading the top of the mast.

However i believe the rig would handle the stress provided the main is firm but not overly tight and set as you say amidships.

With regard to pulling the sails down when run as twins, theres nothing wrong with furling and running as normal even to windward as the sails are identically cut.

You would only remove if wanting to go to working sails i.e. bullet proof genny.

Many have done similar it's not a new concept.

We call your method "a controlled gybe"..

Cheers

[Lagoon4us]

The Twizzle Rig or Twistle Rig for Downwind Ocean Sailing

This guy used similar on his mono. Cheers

[Lagoon4us]

These guys are doing exactly what we are planning on albeit with poles as they are on a mono.

Twin Downwind Sails | Owen Sails

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Angels of Rio

I was recently in Mallorca talking to the proud owner of a 2009 440, and were discussing sailing the 440 in general. Reference was made by me to sailing with Gib alone, downwind in big seas where you may be reluctant to have to bring her about in to the wind to reef the main, especially on a night passage shorthanded.
Reference was made to the 2009 Lagoon hand book that stated for his boat "Under no circumstances sail with the Gib alone, main or part main sail must be up.
I am wondering what the logic is for this, if the topping lift and the main sheet are secure and tight, is there possibly an issue with rig stability?
My hand book 2007 makes reference to up to 50% Gib alone is not an issue.
Is there such a big difference between the 2009 & 2007 440 rigs and there stability... very confusing.
I am about to write to Lagoon and ask the question.
Nige 2007 440

Reading the directions on the sail combinations it dawned on me that maybe we are reading it incorrectly.

In the Lagoon 440 handbook it is entitled "SAIL AREA REDUCTION INSTRUCTIONS"
The left side column notes wind-strengths then the right hand side denotes combinations.

Where we may be reading incorrectly is it's a REEFING guide line for strengthening winds ie Force1 through 9.

This has nothing to do with the loads found prior to those wind strengths i.e. above 25knots.....

Just my thoughts?

[Lagoon4us]

Also interesting in section 7 of the 440 manual (2007 model) it talks of synthetic ropes used for running backstays? Was that an option?