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Old 17-02-2012, 15:34   #1
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Arrow Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

Hi -

I have secured the delivery of a Hylas 56 cutter, from Miami FL to the Virgin Islands.

Trip details:
2011 Hylas 56, in great shape with all the electronic toys
Scheduled departure date 3/15 but dependent upon weather, of course
Route is straight shot: East until 65W, then south to the islands
Could be extended motorsailing, in typically easterly winds
Expect an 8-day trip, plus 1 prep day and 1 cleanup day.

Crew details:
Need 3 crew, for a total of 4.
All crew must be experienced offshore, must send resumes and references
No per diem pay
Food is covered - no crew contribution
Transportation between Miami and your home.
At the present time, transportation to and from the boat are not offered.
(Spirit Air flights from St Thomas-Miami should be available for $170-$250.
We will book tickets before departing Miami, to save costs.)

Captain details:
USCG Master, 100 Tons
Professional sailboat captain
36 years experience, 50,000 miles
Familiar with route (12 trips) and harbors of refuge along the way
Easy going, personable.

Please send resumes, references, and contact info to
jim0123r AT gmail DOT com

Please be sure you are available through 3/27 or so, in case we have to wait for weather to depart. Thank you.
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Old 18-02-2012, 05:29   #2
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

"I have secured the delivery of a Hylas 56 cutter, from Miami FL to the Virgin Islands."

You expect experienced crew to fly themselves to Miami then home from STT (more like $600 total) to help you sail a boat your getting paid to sail.

Nice!!
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Old 18-02-2012, 06:35   #3
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

hi cliff - and all others with contrary opinions -

everyone does what they have to do. i have taken plenty of free crew on many trips. all are glad to get away and be out there. their make their money back home - most times far more than we are making in this scrappy business. i am happy to make these trips available to these great - and grateful - persons. and happy to sail with these knowledgeable and experienced sailors.

by the way, for all those who do not know about spirit airlines: yesterday they had many dates with fares from STT to MIA for $63-$124, one way. i've flown them before myself - far cheaper than american airlines!

have a good day -
jim

ps -
i see VERY FEW paying positions on this site at all - with no airfares paid also. not on sailnet and findacrew as well. do members really send their "Really?" replies to all those postings too?

as i said, many persons working in the cold of winter are thrilled to come along. i'm happy to give them that opportunity. this is not exactly a cold, treacherous trip - watching a radar for 6 hours a day in shorts and a t-shirt, listening to an ipod and eating well for free, is pretty darn easy to take.

my mother used to say "if you don't have something nice to say...don't say it." how wonderful forums would be if that were the case, huh?
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Old 18-02-2012, 07:37   #4
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

Are you getting paid?
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Old 19-02-2012, 07:52   #5
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

The problem is, there's too many people willing to do it for free and to many Captains willing to take advantage.

I would suggest that even if you pay for part of the persons travel expenses you are setting yourself up for litigation if that person gets injured or dies.

That goes for the owner as well as he hired you and you hired the crew members. Their the ones who's insurance I would be going after, 2 million liability would be very appealing to a law firm working on contingency fees.

But that will never happen.
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Old 19-02-2012, 08:59   #6
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

I know things have maybe changed a lot over the years!! but In the past I would have turned down a delivery if crew transportation was not included!! but then my crew were REAL delivery sailors, who wore the clothing needed for the trip wherever it was to !! they also stood watchs at sea, not just sat and watched a radar !! I always thought if I made some money then the folks I needed to do this also needed a little compensation !! Maybe in this day and age it's different? O well I guess it's good I don't do to many deliveries anymore LOL cus my old crew would laugh at me if I asked them to pay there own way home !!! LOl just my 2 cents Bob and Connie
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Old 20-02-2012, 08:18   #7
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

In defense of the original poster, he's correct: quite a few experienced off-shore sailors will do this for free. They certainly don't feel taken advantage and each has their own reasons which are just as valid as those of paid crew.

Some do it to build miles toward their USCG or RYA certifications. Some do it in order to learn from a more experienced sailor. Some might want to find out about the characteristics of an individual boat and some just like sailing OPBs.

While anyone who can afford a Hylas 56 can certainly afford to cover crew costs, I'm guessing in this case the delivery skipper is being paid a flat rate and the costs of crew transportation would come out of his pocket. If he can save a dime and not endanger the boat, what's the problem? As he said, it's a scrappy business. Given his location, I suspect he'll find acceptable crew fairly easily. This is not a particularly difficult delivery.

While transportation expense is certainly one concern for prospective crew members and my own transportation has been covered to and from the boat on all deliveries in which I've participated, I would consider purchasing my own ticket if (a) the route looked particularly interesting and/or (b) the boat was something I wanted to learn more about.

Neither are true in this case; motor-sailing into the trades isn't something I would pay to do and the only way I'll ever be able to afford a Hylas 56 is if I find a rich widow, something to which I suspect my wife might object. If it were something on the order of a CS36T, however, I would have to reconsider.

It's not clear to me how there can be "too many people willing to do it for free" or why this is a problem.
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Old 20-02-2012, 18:14   #8
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotocopilot View Post
The problem is, there's too many people willing to do it for free and to many Captains willing to take advantage.

I would suggest that even if you pay for part of the persons travel expenses you are setting yourself up for litigation if that person gets injured or dies.

That goes for the owner as well as he hired you and you hired the crew members. Their the ones who's insurance I would be going after, 2 million liability would be very appealing to a law firm working on contingency fees.

But that will never happen.

Your absolutely right, there are thousands of people who think they're ready to sail your boat to the ends of the earth. And as you also say, "and to many captains willing to take advantage."

If you trust your boat and very possibly your life to people of such little experience that their willing to pay you to move YOUR boat from point A to B, by all means, use them! I treat boats like I do people's homes. I don't run hell out of them to catch the next delivery and they always arrive at their destination cleaner and in better shape than when they left. A big difference from your paying crew.

Personally, I wouldn't deliver a boat without insurance. The fact that your already alluding to suing the crew, well, I don't think I'd care to deliver your boat.
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Old 21-02-2012, 03:48   #9
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

This is an interesting topic. I suggest we move it to a general discussion thread, but I don't know how that works. It is unfortunate that one can no longer make money crewing deliveries. I have gotten to the point that I draw the line at transportation costs. I also find that occasionally a skipper may find one experienced crew, and then feel that the others don't need to be at the same level. This may work on milk runs, but if any weather blows up can become a dangerous situation. I think the old adage "you get what you pay for" is an apt one.
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Old 21-02-2012, 07:02   #10
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

"Personally, I wouldn't deliver a boat without insurance. The fact that your already alluding to suing the crew, well, I don't think I'd care to deliver your boat."

I'm not suggesting as an owner I would be suing the crew. What I was suggesting is as a crew member who was hired with even partial payment of travel expenses, should I get injured, I would be suing the Captain and the Owner for some compensation for the injury while in their employment.

The owner could try and establish that the Licensed Captain who was hired didn't use due diligence in hiring a crew with experience,but rather for cost savings.Thus placing the fault back on the captain, in the end both would be liable for hiring an experienced crew member.

I am both an owner of a sailboat and professional competent delivery crew, with thousands of ocean delivery miles,that expects to be paid. In return I will in a professional manner assist in the delivery of your boat ensuring the boat and crew arrive safely to the destination.

But that's just me.
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Old 21-02-2012, 07:28   #11
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

Hi,
Name is John. Retired with no time constraints. Able bodied, experienceded. e-mail johntowles@hotmail.com
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Old 21-02-2012, 11:50   #12
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

"In defense of the original poster, he's correct: quite a few experienced off-shore sailors will do this for free. They certainly don't feel taken advantage and each has their own reasons which are just as valid as those of paid crew.

Some do it to build miles toward their USCG or RYA certifications. Some do it in order to learn from a more experienced sailor. Some might want to find out about the characteristics of an individual boat and some just like sailing OPBs"

Your absolutely correct. And were it advertised as a training passage I'd be ok with it. The OP spilled the beans and said it was a delivery. So it seems an individual who is getting paid to deliver the boat (and for a Hlyas 56 I'm sure it's undoubtely big bucks) apparently wants to save all the money for his own pocket.

I still wonder if the boat owner knows of this arrangement. Jim?
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Old 21-02-2012, 13:17   #13
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

"I still wonder if the boat owner knows of this arrangement. Jim?"

Obviously I can't answer that, but it's been my experience that the owner shows up pretty promptly after his 1/2 million dollar baby makes landfall and generally has a chance to meet the crew. The ones I've met have always seemed pretty satisfied. Most even buy the beer.

If I understand it correctly, the primary argument here is that unpaid crew, or at least those willing to pay for their own transportation to and from the boat, are by definition inexperienced and a potential danger to the boat. I'm not sure that can be supported by facts, at least with regard to licensed captains. We've all heard horror stories of ill-equipped owner-operators going offshore will inexperienced crew and getting in over their heads (pardon the pun), but how many times has that actually happened with professional captains who, presumably, aren't suicidal and can tell within five minutes whether or not their new crew member knows a sheet from a halyard?

I've yet to have served with another crew member, paid or unpaid, whose sailing skills were such that I'd be unwilling to go out with them again. Personalities and attitude, however, are another issue -- I think most would agree that attitude trumps experience every time.

Ultimately, how else would you suggest someone get offshore experience other than paying their own way and going out with a professional? There are probably gonna be two or three other people on the boat who can at least show 'em how to operate the head.

Maybe I'll feel differently when I can afford a 1/2 million dollar baby of my own, but I doubt it.
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Old 21-02-2012, 16:51   #14
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

What kind of insurance waiver do they have to sign?
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Old 21-02-2012, 17:08   #15
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Re: Miami to Virgin Islands 3/14

OK then, UGMHO - How much do you pay your crew?

I think the waters of this thread have been muddied somewhat. What is it to others how the OP gets his crew? He's been pretty up-front about the conditions and so its "take it or leave it". What's the point of this "Holier than thou attitude"?

And then we get into possible litigation....oh dear, oh dear.... Tony
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