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Old 17-10-2014, 04:06   #16
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

I was only making the point that extreme weather can hit offshore and build to tremendous seas, and I would take off the outboard and ship the dinghy onboard before making a passage.... ANYTIME I was more than a days sail from refuge..

Wise people will take that advice...

Kind regards, Helia
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Old 17-10-2014, 04:17   #17
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

I don't have experience with this. However I would be interested in critical comments on my proposed approach.

I will have a similar issue on my Lagoon 400. Not now because I am overwintering in Cartagena. However next northern summer I will need to make a few 2+ day trips in the Med and at some point later cross the pond.

The 400 I think has davits that are a little higher than the FP but the strength of each davit is similar (each davit rated for 150kg). I have a 3.4m Highfield RIB with a 15 HP (47kg) Honda outboard. I would like to set things up so I don't take the outboard off because it weighs 47kg. I could be talked out of leaving the outboard on. I would also very much like not to take the dinghy off. This would be more difficult that taking the outboard off. I have the same concern as already mentioned of the dinghy filling from breaking waves and bending the davits.

This is what I am planning:

. Jordan Series drogue
. Always leave the dinghy tilted towards the back and the drain hole open
. Put a Specta stay from 2/3rds along each davit (just aft of the davit blocks) up to the rear of the bimini. This point on the bimini is close to where mainsail traveler is and should be quite strong.
. Rig a fairly substantial dinghy cover (probably made from a old sail) that will shed most of the water from a breaking wave.
. I already have second round-the-dinghy-lashings to complement the davit hoists.

Your thoughts on my proposal please and what do the guys who are crossing the Atlantic do?
Thanks
Brian
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Old 17-10-2014, 04:53   #18
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

You know Brian if your sailing is in the trade wind belt you can get away with many things that might be considered on the foolish side in northern/southern latitudes.
I will not carry a dink in davits offshore BUT I know from experience that just like certain boat choices, your unlikely to have problems as the weather in the trades is pretty benign, "usually" and the likely hood of you experiencing large breaking waves and getting pooped is very low.
Sailing off the Wa and Oregon areas have shown me what real breaking waves actually look like and a couple of times sailing to New Zealand also tuned me up a bit.
I think most cats these days and even mono hulls sail offshore with a dink in davits, something that would have seemed idiotic some years ago but with decent weather reporting and staying in the lower latitudes most folks don't have problems but its not a habit I would carry over to sailing in tougher conditions.
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Old 17-10-2014, 14:37   #19
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Looks like a fairly divided set of responses. Thanks everyone for your well-intentioned input. I wish it were overwhelmingly in favor of one option or another because honestly, I'm still on the fence, but leaning towards deflating and strapping her upside down to the upper deck where she's not out of the way, but as good as can be. I believe, if that's the way I do go, I'll add a few low-profile pad eyes at the port-side edge of the deck since there's not really anything else to tie her down to on that side. As much of a freak occurrence as it would be to catch a nasty wave over the stern, it would be just my bad luck for that to happen. Ah, but I do hate drilling holes anywhere on my boat...(sigh)
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Old 18-10-2014, 21:09   #20
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

So let's ask the question then. How many cat sailors have had a following, or quartering sea, crash on the cockpit? Not counting seas that can run up the steps, but a wave that would actually fill up a dingy on davits?

Anyone? Maybe it should be a new thread?

I only have one experience when we were running before really big breaking seas (6 meter breaking) running back from Lord Howe Is. on a 14m Simpson strip plank cedar boat, quite heavy boat running bare poles. No wave ever came close to pooping us, but we all thought the next one would.

Raises the question about whether you are intending to use the dinghy as a liferaft, or carry a liferaft anyway. Insurance seems to like liferafts, and require them for off shore cruising as a condition for insurance. But personally from what I have read and heard, they should more properly be called "Deathrafts."
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Old 19-10-2014, 04:07   #21
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Hello again Big Beakie,

Look, it does not have to be just a large following sea breaking. Yes most of my experience has been on monohulls, but even racing the Helia in two metre seas I have had wind waves blast against the stern quarter as I was tacking around an island in 25 knots.. It was not bad but put salt water a little heavier than spray, over the stern.. It would not take much water to over weight the davits and potentially break something in my opinion, OK?

There is just no way I would go offshore with it on the davits.. BigBeakie, by example: There is a MASSIVE cockpit drain up under the hard roof, just before the entry to the bridge deck main salon, I mean HUGE. It has massive outlets under a large grate, going straight out. Fountain Pajot would not have spent the money to build in such a drain if there was little chance of a boarding sea coming over the stern quarter or something... It might only take a half an hour to an hour to take off the outboard and load and deflate and tie it down..

From Single Handling my Helia in races at about 25 kts gusting a little more, judging from my sailing experience in heavy weather: In my opinion what you have to do with Cats is drag warps or a strong drogue to slow you down. The danger is actually in going too fast IMO. In those conditions, it is entirely possible the top of a sea with breaking wind wave could put some water on the stern. I may never be in those near survival conditions again, but it is entirely possible IMO when making a passage offshore...

Kind regards, Helia 44
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Old 19-10-2014, 17:01   #22
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Yep Helia 44 I do hear what you are saying. I am just asking the question "has anyone ever had a wave break on the cockpit and fill it up, so that we can assume it would have also drowned the dingy and probably damaged it and/or the davits/" Just asking the question ,OK?

I have asked the question of Tony Grainger, Lock Crowther & Nathan Stanton if any of their clients ever got seriously pooped (answer= no) because I have never personally spoke to or met any cruising cat sailor that has had that happen. But this forum has a huge and wide range of cruisers, so it's a legitimate question, at least I think it is. I alreadt addressed the survival storm situation, and I believe that is best handled by not being there in the first place.

And your huge cockpit drains are probably a requirement by certification bodies who realise the amount of rainwater that will flood down from the helm station!
....Just kidding
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Old 19-10-2014, 17:56   #23
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Hello again Big Beakie,
Alway nice to speak with you.. I have an example of a stern quarter boarding sea in 25 knots + on the Helia, that I can relate

Look, this may seem extreme, but my Wife has a bone spur in her neck and could get sick on me. For my confidence, for my sport, I have been Single Handed racing my Helia 44 in heavier weather now three times. In case I can fly the big furling screecher gennaker off the wind, I extend Gennaker furling gear on the port side with a 6 meter extension line sheep-shanked to the end and led to the helm winch island starboard in front of the helm. It is a straight shot.. For the big furling Genoa/Gennaker, the port sheet is long enough to do a half wrap on the winch and also lead up to the helm winch island... For heavier weather, the working jib port and starboard sheets are already led, and I have enough winches to have a dedicated one for port and starboard, as main halyard is jam cleated off securely, and starboard furler for the inner furller working jib is already led there. I stand in front of the helm on a tack, running the helm with one hand behind me and the winch island with the other. It is really not as hard as it sounds if you are reasonably fit and a seasoned sailor..

Anyway, by example in a not so perfect world, my worst blue with a Cat to date was this in a race: Rounding one island in 1 1/2 to 2 meter seas with white horses everywhere in 25 kts gusting maybe 30 apparent, as the afternoon winds unexpectedly picked up 5-8 more knots that forecast... I would not do a controlled gybe as it is a huge stress on the rig.. Instead, from a broad reach with limited water to the beach, heading west in the Northerly, I turned up to starboard into the wind and rolled around to do a controlled tack instead of a gybe, and went on downwind on the correct tack to the ESE with main and working jib. As I did this, I had enough of wind wave hitting the stern quarter to put sheets of water over the port stern quarter to the starboard side.. Now, I am not sure Crew would have helped this, it was a neat enough tack, but I took enough of a hit with the top of a windwave that I would not have wanted to see worse with the dinghy in place. I am not sure this was in ANY WAY poor Seamanship, given the conditions, it was almost the only way to do it.. Mind you the comments in the Club were that they were surprised I completed the course as it got a bit shirty out there. It was getting bad enough I was in proper offshore gear, PFD vest, waterproof VHF, personal Epirb, and dual hook up safety harness.. I am crazy, not stupid. And to call the race at that point was pretty near useless with the same distance to home as doing the safey tack around the island OK?

While this is not classically being "pooped" and Cats are fast and agile enough to avoid this, it is not a perfect world. You do not have to be the classic "pooped" by a breaking windwave on a following sea, it could happen over the stern quarter as you surf down a big wave IMO.. While with good Seamanship I agree it is not likely, when something goes wrong I think it is still entirely possible, and THAT is why I think F.P. put in the big grate and cockpit drains.. I do not ever intend to need them, but offshore in a pinch it could be necessary surfing down the face of big waves like I have seen with the top breaking in winds over 60 knots..

BTW, in the worst I have seen, when I was younger, it was bad enough that you got to where you were a bit scared to look behind you.. As you are slowing the boat down to let the waves pass under you with control, and you come back up the face of the following wave up your stern quarter, after about 10-15 feet of it you start to hear the sucking sound of the breaking part of the windwave before it passes white water all around you with the boat shuddering, and then you are into the full force of shrieking scream of the whole gale at sea of 60+ knots at the top of the wave as it boils past ... I hope this is entertaining to you, I can assure you at the time it was scary..

For any armchair warriors, you might think this sound fun or exciting, but it is not... I can assure you that would be praying that if God lets you ever get ashore again you are going to move to a farm far inland... heh he

Kind regards from Helia, older, not as fit, questionably wiser.. heh he he...
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Old 20-10-2014, 01:08   #24
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Helia,

as your story related your situation racing was far from passage making in a cat.

I have no experience with pooping in a cat although I suspect i read about one in some bad weather in a Roger Hill cat sailing from Tonga/Fiji south to NZ in some bad weather. I do not recall any details.

regardless The Helia davits sound rather on the light side and that might be part of your concerns.

Certainly would be interesting to hesar I anyone else has been pooped in a cat.

Cheers
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Old 20-10-2014, 01:25   #25
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Quote:
And your huge cockpit drains are probably a requirement by certification bodies who realise the amount of rainwater that will flood down from the helm station!
Funny, but unfortunately true, but then again true of most raised helm boats. We have taken all countermeasures to ensure that in a strong downpour the cockpit is not flooded. Only a few drops now.

I also know of cruisers on Helias that have done considerable passages without being pooped. Put the outboard inboard and strap the dingy to the davits and you will have no issues (assuming you have the raised davits).
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Old 27-10-2014, 18:05   #26
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Re: Stowing a Dinghy in Transit (Helia 44)

Thanks for the good information. Just to close the loop on this thread, I decided to stow her on the upper deck, deflated, upside down and bow to aft. She fits pretty good right there, and secures nicely to existing rails. It may be overkill, but it helps me sleep. Now, just waiting for a good WX window to make our departure, and it doesn't look like that's going to be this weekend!
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