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Old 23-03-2011, 20:10   #1
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Spare Headsail?

Hi:

As we prepare to tackle the southern Indian Ocean, we realize, perhaps belatedly, that we need a spare headsail ... one both able to be deployed if our Incidence 150% genoa blows out, and also able to be deployed in heavy weather.

I have the measurements from the FP manuals, but could use some advice and information ...

1. What's the "official" diameter of the luff tape/rope? My caliper say 6 mm ... but real data is welcome.

2. What have others done for spares ... what weight sail cloth, and how have you addressed the luff tape vs. sleeve vs ?? question ... I know best practice is to NOT rely on the furling system in heavy weather, but as I said above, I think we need this sail to serve two possible purposes.

3. What's a good size for a spare headsail; I measure our luff at about 12.9 meters, and think we'd be fine with a spare whose luff was between 8 and 10 meters ... thus allowing for the use in storm conditions.

All advice welcome, and many thanks.

/jon
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Old 05-04-2011, 16:52   #2
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Hi Jon,

After having tried various options (symetrical, assymetrical, genneaker, etc) for my passage to Caribbean, today I've tried the twin genoa mounted on the forestay. (Orana's have two channels and this can easily be done) I used exactly the identical geneo that I've taken from another Orana.
The result was perfect.. I did app. 7 knts SOG @ 14-15 knots of true and more importantly the boat was very stable and hopefully the autopilote will be very happy on the long passage. I will still take one assymetrical and maybe one spinneaker but, the main job will be on twin genoas.
MAybe you can consider to do the same, hence, ordering another genoa identical to what you have. In worst case, it will be yr spare..
On the other hand I don't know how does it look yr genoa, but normally even in rush chartre conditions, the genoa should easily last 3 years, if you are careful probably 4..
FYI, both genoas are factory supplied Incidences.

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 05-04-2011, 17:15   #3
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Thanks -- great advice ... with two genoas on the foil, how does it furl?

Yes -- my genoa is in great shape ... we actually doubled up the sunbrella cloth, and reinforced at the spreader connection points so in great shape after 3 years ... but we are headed to Indian Ocean, and worry that I need a storm-like sail for continuously heavy wind conditions ...

We'll be looking at Rolly Tasker loft in Phuket ...

Good luck!

/jon
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:36   #4
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Very easy.. You unfurl the genoa like you do for single one, according to the dirwection of wind two genoas are opening one on the other one, like two layers of geno. Then you take the wind aft and you pull one of them and fill them both. That's it. It works perfect 180 degrees +/-15 degress without any need for trimming. If you go 20 degrees then some trimming is needed.
Forgot to mention, you cannot use (you may but it will definately be less efficient) this rigging by using the standard genoa traveller; they are way inside for running. Actually you might have noticed this problem when wide angle reaching. That's why I always carry two pulleys attached the amidship clew and I take the lines from there to the winches.In twin head sailing, I strongly suggest that you take both of the lines from these pulleys rather than the standard genoa traveller.
Another big advantage is that in case of emergency you simply furl the genoa or you can reef them by furling partially.
The use of main sail is not necessary and I didn't try it.
One of the problems with Orana is that there is no place on the fore deck to place a storm sail. If you think you cannot live without it, then the only possibility seems to rig a strom jib to the forestay. It won't be as effective as a "trinquette" but better than nothing. Normally in rough conditions, I just unfurl a bit (very very small..) the genoa.

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Yeloya
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:37   #5
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Very easy.. You unfurl the genoa like you do for single one, according to the dirwection of wind two genoas are opening one on the other one, like two layers of geno. Then you take the wind aft and you pull one of them and fill them both. That's it. It works perfect 180 degrees +/-15 degress without any need for trimming.
Cheers

Yeloya
I know this may be a stupid question, if you have 2 geneoas on the furler for downwind running, how do you use just one genoa for reaching, etc. or do you always use both, in effect 2 layer genny. Not sure I can see that working, wrinkles, etc.
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:37   #6
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Yep. That is a very fine plan in a cat. You have the beam. And two sails on one furler allow you to reduce sail safely and comfortably.

THX for sharing & Bon voyage!

b.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:10   #7
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Re: Spare Headsail?

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Originally Posted by chris07732 View Post
I know this may be a stupid question, if you have 2 geneoas on the furler for downwind running, how do you use just one genoa for reaching, etc. or do you always use both, in effect 2 layer genny. Not sure I can see that working, wrinkles, etc.

Hi Chris,

You are right, but this rigging is mainly adequate for long passage with down wind (trade winds..)
If you need a genoa and you think it's for a shortwhile you will have to use as 2 layer genny. Haven't tried but I assumed using in a long run double layer genny wouldn't be very efficient.
Otherwise, you'll have to turn to the wind, take down both gennies and take out one of them. Not a big deal but not very convenient either..
I believe this is still the best option, particularly if you are shorthanded and or the admiral is not keen on rigging/trimming the spineaker..

I have made sevaral trails with various kind of assymetrical and spinneaker, not an easy task..


The other option is the spinneaker flown out from the bows, (must be in the socket) requires quite a bit of trimming, almost impossible to rely on autopilote unless the wind is 100 % reliable and there is no big swells.
On top, I wouldn't sail i,n the night with this rigging.

The second best option seemed to me to hoist a large assymetrical from one bow to the opposite stern corner. If the sail is properly designed, you can go up to 160, 165 max.. Compared to twin head sails this combination gives almost equal speed at 160, less above and more below. At 120-130 has the maximum speed so I wouldn't consider as a "runner".
Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 17-04-2011, 12:19   #8
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Thanks all -- we are planning to get a #3 jib made by Rolly Tasker in Phuket.

On the broader question of dowwind sailing, our long-distance passages were marked by broad reach/running winds, and we found that our roller-furled genaker worked well to 15 knots AW, at which point we'd unfurl the 150% genoa, backwind the genaker, roll in the genaker, and then proceed, using a turn block located on the midships outboard cleat (using a loop of Spectra to keep the block off the deck).

We'd rarely have the main up in these situations, preferring to pull the boat rather than deal with the yawing in ocean swells and waves that comes with a genoa and main ... much easier on the autopilot. Also, in night conditions, we slept easy as a twosome, knowing that a reef was just a few pulls of the roller furling away.

We'd lose maybe a know at most of SOG, but over a 1000 mile passage, averaging 5.5 knots under this rig, we found that the safety and security and ease of passage more than outweighed the loss of speed ... go slow to go fast.
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Old 19-04-2011, 07:00   #9
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Jon,
That's exactly what I am planning to do.

Meanwhile, did you sleep all, or one of you was always on watch ??

Cheers

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Old 19-04-2011, 08:15   #10
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Sorry to not have been clearer ... we always had one of us on watch ... 4 on 4 off ... reefing down at night meant very few reasons for one to wake the other up ...

There's enough traffic everywhere, and yes, weather can shift dramatically ...

Usually,, we stood watch inside, with near-360 degree visibility and autopilot repeater at the helm station, we'd just poke our heads out every 15-20 minutes for a clean 360, a radar sweep, and then all is good.

A collision at sea can ruin your entire day

/jon
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Old 19-04-2011, 09:35   #11
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Re: Spare Headsail?

On the twin headsail rig, has anyone had experience running with two different sized headsails on the same stay, e.g. a 54 sqm & a 36sqm? Would that work OK or not?

Greg
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Old 19-04-2011, 21:23   #12
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Re: Spare Headsail?

I would have thought it would work. You might require a bit of careful trim to set it up.
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Old 09-06-2011, 20:06   #13
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Hi Jon, A little late, but I had a No2 Genoa built for our Orana and have used it extensivley offshore over the past couple of years. The dimensions are: Luff 12000mm, Foot 5900mm, Leech 9700mm built in Dacron 10oz. The Luff length including the penant is 14700mm. As this can be sheeted inside the stays we are able to point higher and hold the full sail above 25knots of true wind. Hope this helps. Paul
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Old 09-06-2011, 20:14   #14
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Re: Spare Headsail?

On the two headsail debate, we often sail with the screecher and full genoa goosewinged. This is an easily managed congfiguration as both sails are on their own furlers. We also carry a symetrical spinniker that we fly from both bows using two sheets and two guys. Rope burnt figures have been known to result from carying this above 15knots of true wind speed.
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Old 09-06-2011, 22:24   #15
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Re: Spare Headsail?

Thx Scally ... mine is luff = 14500, leech = 11280 mm, foot = 4750 mm with 9 oz Dacron ..

Sits inside mast, with high cut. I take delivery in Bali in a few months, and will advise on how it sets.

/jon
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