Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-05-2014, 05:59   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Boat: Hunter 41
Posts: 24
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Every boat I've bought has two things in common.
It's too big at the dock.
It's too small on the sea.

If set up correctly, you can single hand any size boat around the world, until something breaks. It will always be too big when it comes to docking
__________________

__________________
uncledom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 12:25   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK, Croatia
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Athena 11.6m Rapa Nui II
Posts: 378
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

We sail our 38ft FP Athena 2 up usually and we find that generally easy to sail where the only power aid is the electric anchor windlass. The exceptions are mediterranean mooring without shore assistance or in strong winds when life gets interesting.

Modern FP cats have much higher freeboard and windage than ours, bigger boats doubly so, so med mooring or marina berthing will get get problematic in non-benign conditions. I would seriously consider a bow thruster for a bigger cat like the Saba if you intend doing a lot of this shorthanded.

At sea, I see less of a problem handling a large FP cat. It's just bigger and either takes longer or these days, a power winch. After all, even when fully crewed, most individual tasks are undertaken by 1 or at most 2 people anyway, whatever the size of boat.

My opion is that to accommodate all reasonable shoreside creature comforts, that about 45 feet is adequate. Use lots of solar and a big inverter and you can have a washing machine, microwave etc.

In my view, the big negative for going bigger is the amount it limits you in finding a nice berth. Many places in Northern Europe and the Med have very few berths for big cats alongside, in marinas or med mooring. That will either limit the places you can visit or force you to anchor or use a buoy. If they are popular, you will tend to be forced to anchor further out to get swinging room. It will be a different matter if you intend spending most of the time where anchoring is the norm or only option. The other issue is slipping the boat for maintenance and repairs, requiring large travel lifts or cranes unless you are in a decent tidal range.

It might be helpful to disclose the sort of cruising and areas you envisage to allow more focussed comments.
__________________

__________________
Rapanui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-05-2014, 19:00   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Boatman the problems you had with mooring a Lagoon 440 can be solved with this modification. Lagoon4us took throttles from his saloon and mounted them on stern to make mooring simple. Coltar another CF member has done the same to his L440.

Some Lagoon 440 Modifications to consider.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0033.JPG
Views:	113
Size:	388.8 KB
ID:	81787  
Attached Images
 
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 00:01   #19
Registered User
 
xymotic's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,076
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

One day I sailed 8+ hours and then arrived at Avalon on Catalina; got the mooring and the GF and I cracked open a couple of Coronas to enjoy the afternoon

A brand new GORGEOUS!!! 50-60' Nordhavn came in a short while later; (likely having been navigating from OC like what? an hour? They grabbed their mooring and then for the next 2 more Corona's a couple a few years older than us cleaned and polished every square inch of that boat

And it dawned on me that a) they were going to do that again on the return trip and B) not my idea of a luxury weekend at Catalina (burp)
__________________
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 04:44   #20
Ancient Mariner
 
spiv's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Circumnavigating, currently in AU
Boat: FP, Salina 14.3m
Posts: 260
Send a message via Skype™ to spiv
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Hello peteh007,

my wife and I have been living on our Salina 48 Maestro for nearly 4 years, crossed the Atlantic and the Pacific and are now in French Polynesia on our way home to Australia.

My wife wanted a big boat to entertain and have family on board, I wanted a cat that sails well and we chose the Salina, she fits both requirements, she is big, carries all the extra weight and sails faster than most 'production' cats.

We spent a lot of time and money to turn her into a blue water world circumnavigator and, I suppose, I am still making modifications and additions, does it ever stop???

I built my first sailing boat 45y ago and never been without a boat since, for the last 25y I run my own charter boat business with different boats, NOVAE is the last, I even designed (with Naval architect help) a 57' cat that I fortunately did not build. I raced Hobies, Nacras and other small cats. All this just to let you know that I do know cats.

While my wife is quite happy with our boat, I want to downsize; now, you did not expect that did you?

I have a friend in his late 30 who is a professional skipper, him and his girl sail around the world a 65' cat for the owner, so it is possible to do it as someone else already mentioned.

The reasons I want to downsize are many, but it really boils down to the fact that I want less hassles I want to feel more in control, here are a few:
  • It takes 4 people to hoist the main by hand, so we must always use the electric winch.
  • Reefing: you always have to take a reef or two, smaller sail, much easier= safer.
  • Cleaning: 48x25=1200 sqf, it's a lot easier to clean a 42x21=880 sqf cat
  • Marina fees: it's not unusual to pay by sqm or sqf could be $100 versus $75/day.
  • Anchoring: smaller anchor, smaller chain, plenty more opportunities to find space.
  • Air conditioner size, batteries management, generator, engines maintenance
  • Sponging (cleaning) the bottom: it takes me 4 days (and I am a diver)
  • Shallower draft gets you over that reef
  • Lower mast gets you under that bridge
  • If an engine stops while berthing you have a better chance to fend off and reduce damage.

I could go on and somebody could that it is all crap, however, that is how I feel.

Why don't you come and spend a week or two with us? I can teach you how to handle a big (ish) cat and then you will have a better idea on what really suits you and your wife before you commit BIG money.

You can see NOVAE here.
__________________
Keep smiling
Stefano
spiv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 04:49   #21
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Boatman the problems you had with mooring a Lagoon 440 can be solved with this modification. Lagoon4us took throttles from his saloon and mounted them on stern to make mooring simple. Coltar another CF member has done the same to his L440.

Some Lagoon 440 Modifications to consider.
Neat....
But I still think the helm location and sail control layout sucks..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 06:47   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Neat....
But I still think the helm location and sail control layout sucks..
Don't disagree, I personally don't like access to the boom but the visability for helming amongst coral reefs is excellent.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 06:55   #23
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Tell me about it.. at 6'2" its still a reach up for me.. and dealing with a rig failure and trying to stuff excess sail into the 'bag' on that aft section in a 'sea' is hairy to say the least the way the boom jerks side to side...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 07:51   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Boat: secondarily boatless
Posts: 178
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Pete,

my wife and I have just about completed our first 10,000 miles, and we are very much at ease with the 47 ft of our floating home. Where it gets to be tricky is either reefing or taking the main down in a squall - it's usually my job, and it is a handful. Which is why I would not go for a larger boat if I had the choice. In light winds - everything is easy. When conditions turn nasty - and they sometimes do so rather quickly - you have to feel comfortable with the tasks which are required.

Another example - our anchor weighs 34 kg. That's just about the limit which I can lug around without needing a chiropractor afterwards.

As to other posters, I am a bit confused - am I the only one who has come to the conclusion that we NEVER tie up the bowline first? Once the line at the stern is fixed, either one of us can move the bow in both directions. Or am I missing something?

And a bit of advice - don't fret too much over the size, if the boat feels comfortable it will grow on you very quickly. Spend a few days more on such essentials as energy balance and very important accessories like water maker and washing machine...

Happy hunting...

Oliver
__________________
Oliver L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 07:54   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Boat: secondarily boatless
Posts: 178
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Boatman,

we have diagonal lines fixing the boom once the sail is down, and I would never venture in the path of the boom until they are fixed. And even then - if the sea state is too erratic, bagging the sail can wait until the anchor has set. With the boom swinging between topping lift and main sheet you can put big loads on both...

Oliver


Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Tell me about it.. at 6'2" its still a reach up for me.. and dealing with a rig failure and trying to stuff excess sail into the 'bag' on that aft section in a 'sea' is hairy to say the least the way the boom jerks side to side...
__________________
Oliver L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-05-2014, 08:06   #26
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
Boatman,

we have diagonal lines fixing the boom once the sail is down, and I would never venture in the path of the boom until they are fixed. And even then - if the sea state is too erratic, bagging the sail can wait until the anchor has set. With the boom swinging between topping lift and main sheet you can put big loads on both...

Oliver
Yeh.. but its a delivery.. you deal with what you've got.. owners may not take to kindly to my drilling and fitting ring bolts on their 'sun deck'...
even if it is an improvement..
also emphasis on the words 'Delivery Skipper'... not hired for the other stuff.. just to get it there with the minimum wear and tear possible..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 07:07   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New York
Boat: FP, Eleuthera 60
Posts: 277
Images: 4
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Four of us crossed the Atlantic on a 60' FP, two on two off...only once when the halyard snapped and we had to jury rig we were all on.....now it's just my wife and I handling the boat.....familiarize yourself (both of you) with the boat and systems and always reef early. We love our cat, our dog does also.
Enjoy!
__________________
MIRELOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2014, 03:56   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 79
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

We have a Helia 44 and that is plenty for a couple. After 12 mths cruising we have realised a 40 fter would have been just as good. How often are those port hull cabins going to be filled anyway. And if your guests are for 2 weeks at a time a little squeeze is not a problem. It not like its a mono!!!
__________________
Nasa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2014, 08:18   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,915
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuttyhunk View Post
My partner about has a heart attack every time we dock our twin engine, 36' long, 15' wide cat. I am more agile, so I have to handle the lines. We just moved the boat to its summer dockage (after a winter on the hard, so we were out of practice). When we left the winter boatyard, winds were diminishing, down to almost nothing. They clocked around and picked up, so when we got to the YC, it was a tricky docking and we were fortunate our neighbors were around on a weekday afternoon to help us tie up after a bit of fending off. Non harm, no foul, but the next day we were on the dock and my partner said, you know, I thought I wanted a bigger boat one day, but I think this one is plenty big enough!
Docking a 36', narrow beam, twin engine cat should not be anxiety producing at all. Does not get much easier than that.

Your partner should spend some time working on twin engine boat handling with an instructor or more experienced friend. Will help to de-stress docking for both of you...amd your neighbors. ;-)
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2014, 08:56   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,915
Re: Problems that can arise from Single/Dual handling a large Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

Personally I think your ability to handle a big boat depends a lot on the boats layout on deck..

...

if you've the cash for a 50+ft I'd opt for a smaller boat around 40-44ft and get the interior custom built to your needs/specs.. ..Use your cash to buy an easier to manage but near perfect boat..
Good advice I think.

I captain cats of a lot of diff makes/models up to 65' on a pretty regular basis. At about 50' the sailing related loads increase to where you really need electric winches (and/or huge ones). In the 40' range you can still reasonable handle the loads with manual winches, assuming they are properly sized. A lot of cats have undersized winches IMHO, especially if electric is assumed. So if the fancy electric winch has a problem, then handling that monstorous main is going to be a challenge. Will you be comfortable handling those loads when the weather goes to sh*t offshore?

Also, over 50' the interior volume borders on absurd. Do really "need" that kind of space to be comfortable??? I've run charters with up to 8 guests + crew on 50' cats....very comfortably. I've lived aboard/chartered/cruised on my little 35' cat quite comfortably for many years. Even with up to 4 guests aboard there is still plenty of room. Have had up to 6 guests aboard, and that works OK, but is starting to get crowded (mostly due to less storage on a smaller cat for all their gear, not the guests per se). If you really need massive space then I have a friend with 95' power cat for sale! ;-)

Unless the deck layout really sucks, then docking should not be an issue for two. Even if the layout is poor then you get used to it. I run a couple of larger cats with poor deck layouts and I'm just used to it now, no problem even in challenging situations. Whether cruising or running charters, I normally dock with just one crew on deck on cats 35' to 65'. Although good hands on the dock can be very handy on bigger cats because the freeboard can be so high.

Also keep in mind as you are outfitting all the fancy comforts aboard....every single thing you add is going to require maintnance at some point. If you load it up, then I would sell before she's 10 years old (not a bad strategy either way).
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
single

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dual Vessel Views -vs- Single Vessel View on Dual Cummings MV WOLFPACK Marine Electronics 0 12-04-2014 07:45
Single Head Stay Sail Handling unbusted67 Seamanship & Boat Handling 7 30-01-2013 17:37
Single Handling a cat ... eliems General Sailing Forum 31 29-03-2012 18:37
Best book on converting a boat for single handling? BobMeans Monohull Sailboats 14 12-12-2007 12:11
Sea Chase Cat, or similar large cat...? CSY Man Multihull Sailboats 1 08-11-2004 10:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.