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Old 14-03-2008, 09:03   #316
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Originally Posted by pguillemin View Post
we have boats which have crossed the Atlantic on their own bottom.Some required cosmetic repairs on dents or gel coat .
We had a few leaks as well but nothing drastic
Flexing .They do flex .Seems to be the nature of lights and fast cats; and creaking or squeaking seems to be a problems on boats with an overtensionned rig
I have an old Tobago (hull no. 1), however hard I tension the rig, it still goes "sloppy" when beating into a strong wind, but the stuff on the inside doesn't flex or leak.
Optimising for ease of production and price can be taken a bit too far. Calling these boat light and fast is a bit of a stretch. Compared to what? Put the boat in cruising mode with 4 people, fuel and water, and she will probably not go above 55-55% of windspeed on a reach, if that. Is that fast?

Alan
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Old 14-03-2008, 09:10   #317
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I think that production technique have improved a lot since the Tobago.Boats are lighter and if they flex it is not due to rig tension but to design.
So your forestay stay tight and your windward angle get better.
I am doing a lot of sailing on all of the Fountaine Pajot boats as I import them in the USA and I like the Mahe a lot.We did sea trials for Sail Mag and Practical Sailor after the last Miami show with an owner boat ( ready for crusing ) and we did very well in term of speed ( review should be out this summer or late spring)
Obviously you have to keep the boat as light as possible.Remember that they are built as an introduction boat to the world of catamaran sailing and that everything that you do not use for a few months should be taken off the boat
We sailed Mahe up to 14,15 knots with a good breeze.That is what I called fun ,light and fast
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Old 14-03-2008, 10:57   #318
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Merci de traduire ma pensée! oui nous avons un mahé 36 n°23 depuis mars 2007, 50 annomalies plus ou moins graves ont été décelées par nous puis par un expert; et le chantier devais nous faire parvenir un protocol afin de finir le bateau. Et aujourdh'ui il n'en n'ait rien. Nous avons à notre effectif 3000 milles avec le mahé, qui correspond exactement à ce que nous recherchions, mais les relations et surtout la perte de confiance dans le respect de la clientèle ne nous conviennet pas.
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Old 14-03-2008, 11:04   #319
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Originally Posted by pguillemin View Post
I think that production technique have improved a lot since the Tobago.Boats are lighter and if they flex it is not due to rig tension but to design.
So your forestay stay tight and your windward angle get better.
I am doing a lot of sailing on all of the Fountaine Pajot boats as I import them in the USA and I like the Mahe a lot.We did sea trials for Sail Mag and Practical Sailor after the last Miami show with an owner boat ( ready for crusing ) and we did very well in term of speed ( review should be out this summer or late spring)
Obviously you have to keep the boat as light as possible.Remember that they are built as an introduction boat to the world of catamaran sailing and that everything that you do not use for a few months should be taken off the boat
We sailed Mahe up to 14,15 knots with a good breeze.That is what I called fun ,light and fast
The Mahe is specified as having a lightship weight of 5 tons (on the FP site) The Tobago weighs 4.2 (verified weight of my boat) . So where is the weight saving???? In all the nice 12 mm thick wooden doors and lockers, and other internal fittings? It doesn´t seem to be in getting a nice stiff hull.

You originally claimed that some of the problems were from over tensioning the rig, now the flex is due to design - that is a point we can agree on. My statement earlier was exactly this point, too flexy and squeeky.

Keeping a tight forestay is I agree imperative (so why design flex into the hulls?), but the sheeting angle of the genoa is limited by the rig design and the positioning of the genoa tracks, due to the large triangle on the mast.
These are the reasons for me mounting a track forward of the mast so I can use a self tacking jib for windward work in stronger winds, I don't sail faster but can improve my apparent wind to below around 32 degrees relative, whereas the genoa points around 5 degrees lower. (This is on the Tobago 35) Tacking angle on the GPS goes down to 90-95 degrees with the jib.

I have had the Tobago at 18 knots (flat water and 30-32 knots of wind with full main and genoa, empty boat) - but that in no way means that the boat is a fast boat. Even lightship she struggles to get above 55% of windspeed. In my book, that is not a fast boat. It has many other qualities, buts it's not fast.

The Mahe has wider hulls than the Tobago, so the waterline beam/length ratio is probably 1:10 roughly - that is not performance territory by any definition. Maybe you know what the waterline beam of a hull is and can enlighten us?

The slothful performance of the boat is the reason why I will be rerigging my Tobago with a rotating wingmast, with an extra 3 feet of mast height and a square top mainsail. I have for a number of years used a large Code 0 in kevlar flown off a bowsprit, as well as a gennaker.

These "extra" sails enable me to keep up with some of the faster monohulls of the same length,in winds below 15 knots, (i.e. up to about 60-65% of windspeed) above that i can pass them as they get to their hull speeds.

Fill them up with 250 litres of water, 120 litres of fuel, a small RIB with a decent outboard, 4 people and provisions for week, and you easily lose 10% of the speed.

I'm not knocking the FP boats (i've had one for 8 years and keeping it), they are good for what they are designed for, but calling them fast is a gross exageration of the facts.

I know your job is to sell boats, but in any business, living up to the (realistic) expectations of your customers is what grows the business, and keeps you profitable. (you might not need to work as hard on the next sale) But that is the long term approach.

Regards

Alan
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Old 14-03-2008, 11:44   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N'GoRé View Post
Merci de traduire ma pensée! oui nous avons un mahé 36 n°23 depuis mars 2007, 50 annomalies plus ou moins graves ont été décelées par nous puis par un expert; et le chantier devais nous faire parvenir un protocol afin de finir le bateau. Et aujourdh'ui il n'en n'ait rien. Nous avons à notre effectif 3000 milles avec le mahé, qui correspond exactement à ce que nous recherchions, mais les relations et surtout la perte de confiance dans le respect de la clientèle ne nous conviennet pas.
Ngorei basically says

" we had Mahe 36 hull #23 since March 2007 and detected more or less serious 50 defects and our findings were also approved by an expert. FP shuld have come up with an aggreement to solve this out. Instead, till now, they did nothing.. We did in the meantime 3.000 nm with Mahe which
is in line with our expectations but we are not pleased at all regarding their overall approach and the way they treat their customer.."


My questions are;

1-I assume you didn't notice these defects when the boat was delivered. Otherwise, you should have left the boat where she is until the problems are fixed.
2-if the problems occured later, they should have been solved out later under the term of warranty which I understand FP has declined to.
3-Again I assume that the defects are not major ones since you managed to make 3.000 nm.. or you fixed them all on yr expenses..
4-I am not familiar with french legislation, but in Turkey if the supplier couldn't fix the defects within 3 months , he has to either reimburse the money or (if the custmer agrees to) change defectfull vessel with another one.
Did you take any legal action ??


Cheers

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Old 14-03-2008, 13:32   #321
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a few leaks?

Hi,
You mentioned you have had a few leaks on the Mahes. Can you be more specific about where they were? My experience with other boats is that those leaks tend to occur in other boats as well. The reason I ask is that I recently noted a slight leak in Starboard window (along passageway) and wondered if others have had similar. If so their experience might make it easier to locate the source more quickly. By the way, I love my Mahe and she has now gone over 6500nm with little trouble. She seems fast to me (compared to other larger cats I have sailed) but I keep her light.
thanks,
Lori
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Old 14-03-2008, 13:51   #322
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No leaks on my boat. Just a few problems so far and everything was fixed under the warranty.we know have over 3500nm and we are really enjoying our boat.
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Old 14-03-2008, 14:09   #323
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Originally Posted by pguillemin View Post
we have boats which have crossed the Atlantic on their own bottom.Some required cosmetic repairs on dents or gel coat .
We had a few leaks as well but nothing drastic
Flexing .They do flex .Seems to be the nature of lights and fast cats; and creaking or squeaking seems to be a problems on boats with an overtensionned rig
That's interesting I just crossed the Atlantic on my Mahe and I would say my only real complaint was the noise. She creaked and squeaked alot more than I expected. Have you actually had success re-tuning the rig on other Mahe's to eliminate some of this noise?
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Old 14-03-2008, 14:52   #324
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Ours is still creaking,much less than before but still at the stairs on both sides.
JC.
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Old 14-03-2008, 15:30   #325
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Thumbs up

we have the same creaks and groans as discribed by others, but we are getting used to them. Lets face it, all boats have thier own creaks and can be atributed to the design. The good news is that there is little "slapping" do to the nice freeboard on the boat. I know of a Mahe that was delivered with mine that had both port and starboard hull windows leaking quite a bit of water, he needed to run both bilge pumps during his deliver. All was fixed by our broker, as I understand it. I have had no similar issues.
All the warranty issues I've had to date have been dealt with by my broker. All said we have a fun boat and are enjoying it.

Scott
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Old 14-03-2008, 15:41   #326
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Scott,
Do you know where the problem was with the leaking windows on that other Mahe? Was it the windows themselves or some other fixture leaking with the water just running to the window?
thanks,
Lori
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Old 14-03-2008, 17:21   #327
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That's interesting I just crossed the Atlantic on my Mahe and I would say my only real complaint was the noise. She creaked and squeaked alot more than I expected. Have you actually had success re-tuning the rig on other Mahe's to eliminate some of this noise?
I would imagine that tightening the rig would lessen the creaking and squeaking, and help tighten the forestay.The rig loads depend on wind strength, direction and sea state. However hard you tighten the rig, the rigging will still stretch under real life sailing loads, so blaming the noise on rig tension is a diversionary tactic.
With wave action the mast will always move a bit, but this is not what is causing the noises inside the boat!
A well built cat should not have this level of noise/movement of components in and on the boat. The multiple leak reports are probably based on this flexing of the whole construction. A short to medium term fix will be to use a more flexible compound to seal around the windows and portholes, but this will not solve the inherent problem in the long term.

I ould suggest that all you Mahe owners start an owners group, if there isn't one already and work together to get this problem sorted.
I read somewhere that FP also had to redo the decks on 4 Lavezzis due to some stuctural issues, maybe the FP importer pguillemin would care to comment?

Alan
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Old 15-03-2008, 07:08   #328
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Lori
As I understand it, the windows were removed and reset, this seems to have fixed the leak. Philippe, can you comment more on this?
Nordic cat, tightening the rigging does help with the noise, but I think most of it is coming from the fact that FP places an inner "shell", if you will, which is not part of the structural hull of the boat. The stairs are part of that lining and they do creak.
I will say that ALL boats I've been on creak, I just sailed a Moorings 46 from the BVI's to Florida and it made quite a bit of noise as well.
However you make an interesting observation of what could be the cause of the windows to eventually leak, but I will add that the boat that I know of with the leaks was delivered from the factory with them.

Scott
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:21   #329
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answer

Alan

Difference in weight is mostly due to the vast difference in volume between the Tobago and the Mahe.I think that infusion and injection have helped us saved weight and keep a more consistent control over the weight of boats during the production life.
Flex: Rig overtightening will make the boat flex ( lateral flex) and will make the boat creaks.
Proper tensionning of the rig and mast will keep your forestay tight and give you a better angle.
Movement of interior furniture is different.Parts are glued together and designed to move.This do not have any influence on the hulls or rigging.
Speed: Cruising boat territory>We are not talking wing mast here or sqare top mainsail,but real on the water speed and that what I have been experiencing on our owners' boats( which all have Air conditionning ,gen set and xtra gear) Still good enough .
These boats are production boats built with a budget in mind and are a compromise between weight saving and money saving....
We also built large fast catamarans at Multiplast and the weight saving and speed become very expensive .
athwartship track for jib or staysail is a great idea .We are also offering the Gale sail from ATN which goes around your furled genoa.....keep it simple
It is also true that we are the dealer importer and are biased but I love the Mahe and had only good experience with the boats so far





Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
The Mahe is specified as having a lightship weight of 5 tons (on the FP site) The Tobago weighs 4.2 (verified weight of my boat) . So where is the weight saving???? In all the nice 12 mm thick wooden doors and lockers, and other internal fittings? It doesn´t seem to be in getting a nice stiff hull.

You originally claimed that some of the problems were from over tensioning the rig, now the flex is due to design - that is a point we can agree on. My statement earlier was exactly this point, too flexy and squeeky.

Keeping a tight forestay is I agree imperative (so why design flex into the hulls?), but the sheeting angle of the genoa is limited by the rig design and the positioning of the genoa tracks, due to the large triangle on the mast.
These are the reasons for me mounting a track forward of the mast so I can use a self tacking jib for windward work in stronger winds, I don't sail faster but can improve my apparent wind to below around 32 degrees relative, whereas the genoa points around 5 degrees lower. (This is on the Tobago 35) Tacking angle on the GPS goes down to 90-95 degrees with the jib.

I have had the Tobago at 18 knots (flat water and 30-32 knots of wind with full main and genoa, empty boat) - but that in no way means that the boat is a fast boat. Even lightship she struggles to get above 55% of windspeed. In my book, that is not a fast boat. It has many other qualities, buts it's not fast.

The Mahe has wider hulls than the Tobago, so the waterline beam/length ratio is probably 1:10 roughly - that is not performance territory by any definition. Maybe you know what the waterline beam of a hull is and can enlighten us?

The slothful performance of the boat is the reason why I will be rerigging my Tobago with a rotating wingmast, with an extra 3 feet of mast height and a square top mainsail. I have for a number of years used a large Code 0 in kevlar flown off a bowsprit, as well as a gennaker.

These "extra" sails enable me to keep up with some of the faster monohulls of the same length,in winds below 15 knots, (i.e. up to about 60-65% of windspeed) above that i can pass them as they get to their hull speeds.

Fill them up with 250 litres of water, 120 litres of fuel, a small RIB with a decent outboard, 4 people and provisions for week, and you easily lose 10% of the speed.

I'm not knocking the FP boats (i've had one for 8 years and keeping it), they are good for what they are designed for, but calling them fast is a gross exageration of the facts.

I know your job is to sell boats, but in any business, living up to the (realistic) expectations of your customers is what grows the business, and keeps you profitable. (you might not need to work as hard on the next sale) But that is the long term approach.

Regards

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:26   #330
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We had a couple of boats with leak on the front window.It was an easy fix.Obviously a problem with the process at the factory .
Did not happen on the last boats delivered
On the last Mahe delivered across the Atlantic we lost a batten for the Lazy bag and broke the lock for the sliding door....pretty good after 5000.00 miles
We had problems also with some Furuno electronic then found out that the problems lies in a missing voltage regulator
In any case the factory stand behind the customers


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott730 View Post
Lori
As I understand it, the windows were removed and reset, this seems to have fixed the leak. Philippe, can you comment more on this?
Nordic cat, tightening the rigging does help with the noise, but I think most of it is coming from the fact that FP places an inner "shell", if you will, which is not part of the structural hull of the boat. The stairs are part of that lining and they do creak.
I will say that ALL boats I've been on creak, I just sailed a Moorings 46 from the BVI's to Florida and it made quite a bit of noise as well.
However you make an interesting observation of what could be the cause of the windows to eventually leak, but I will add that the boat that I know of with the leaks was delivered from the factory with them.

Scott
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