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Old 18-08-2009, 14:35   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I could imagine that that once the foresail no longer balanced the boat, the autopilot maxxed out to one side, and if there is no stop (ELECTRICAL) set up, it just keeps on, and maybe mechanically jammed something. Using force on the wheel probably was the final straw, and something gave way??

I don't know what steering system they use, so difficult to tell, hopefully the story will continue...

Alan
Interesting remark, about the foresail effect.

Here's my observations on the auto pilot.

The autopilot stopped working at a point after the foresail halyard had snapped:

The wheel was jammed. The auto pilot had an error message something like autopilot drive error. The next day I looked it up. Is is shown when (after memory) a command has been sent to the hydraulic system without being executed in 10 seconds. They suggest to test the hydraulic system, but I could not find anything on that. A jammed cable could probably give the same message, because the command could not be executed.

I took pictures of the repaired wire in the autopilot (which we looked at the day after). Unfortunatey I forgot to take a before picture, so I could have something wrong. Anyway here's two pictures in one with what it should probably look like when OK. Left is without a plate connected with 4 bolts (C on the right picture).


Before being repaired there was no cable protruding where A is on the left picture. The copper thingy at B was not there either, there was just a raw cable (i.e. as it appears near A on the picture).
So somehow, probably I managed to pull the wire out, all the way form B to A, by turning the wheel. If it got turned past the cog in the middle (no letter), that would explain the wheel turning almost with no resistance.

How simple turning the wheel, albeit with force, could get copper thing to fall off I cannot really understand. Either 1) the bolts (C) were not fastened tight enough at the beginning, 2) there is an error in the construction (IMO), or 3) I am superman . I would like to believe the latter, but I am inclined to believe it was one of the two first explanations.
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Old 18-08-2009, 14:39   #32
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[quote=berntsen;319125]
Quote:
I am sure that the captain on the trip will do his best to get it to Orust. The weather is calming, so I think he will make.
It is only about 12 hours away from where the boat is, and the forecast for the next 3 days is pretty good at 14 to 22 knots from the SE and going W on friday, so it's nearly downwind most of the way.


Quote:
At wind speeds from around 22 to 34 knots I noticed we sailed from around 8 knots to 11.1. When slamming waves (not too often, but it happened) probably less. We sailed mostly around 60 degrees to the wind.
This must be relative wind speeds you are quoting, (I am about 60 miles away and we didn't have more than around 25 knots in the gusts and 16-10 otherwise) because if it is TWS, then she is slower than the other FPs. Most will do around 50% TWS and not much more.....

Have you sailed any other larger cats that you can compare the Lipari to?

Were there any of the squeeking noises in the hulls when sailing in bumpy conditions, like those described from other newer FP boats?

Alan
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:02   #33
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[quote=Nordic cat;319142]
Quote:
Originally Posted by berntsen View Post

It is only about 12 hours away from where the boat is, and the forecast for the next 3 days is pretty good at 14 to 22 knots from the SE and going W on friday, so it's nearly downwind most of the way.
The only thing that should stop it from happening, I should say, is if the auto-pilot/steering is not properly understood, which would make me, if I were the captain, a bit worried.

[quote=Nordic cat;319142]
Quote:
Originally Posted by berntsen View Post
This must be relative wind speeds you are quoting, (I am about 60 miles away and we didn't have more than around 25 knots in the gusts and 16-10 otherwise) because if it is TWS, then she is slower than the other FPs. Most will do around 50% TWS and not much more.....
That was the number on the windmeter on the bridge. I did not check up on how it was configured. I will see if I can get info back on that. I may remember wrongly on our angle to the wind, as an alternative possible explanation. Or the waves could be against us, or the current. The speed was read off the log (as I recall it), between the nav pilot and the wind meter. See the image full res:



[quote=Nordic cat;319142]
Quote:
Originally Posted by berntsen View Post
Have you sailed any other larger cats that you can compare the Lipari to?
Just a short fair weather trip in the lagoon 440.

[quote=Nordic cat;319142]
Quote:
Originally Posted by berntsen View Post
Were there any of the squeeking noises in the hulls when sailing in bumpy conditions, like those described from other newer FP boats?
I was mostly on the bridge when the weather roughed. I did not notice much squeeking, only some bumps. Do you have any links to posts to the squeeking sounds?

Cheers,
/\/ikolaj
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:07   #34
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[quote=berntsen;319138]Interesting remark, about the foresail effect.

Here's my observations on the auto pilot.

The autopilot stopped working at a point after the foresail halyard had snapped:

Quote:
The wheel was jammed. The auto pilot had an error message something like autopilot drive error. The next day I looked it up. Is is shown when (after memory) a command has been sent to the hydraulic system without being executed in 10 seconds. They suggest to test the hydraulic system, but I could not find anything on that. A jammed cable could probably give the same message, because the command could not be executed.
when you lose the foresail, the mainsail will push the nose into the wind. The autopilot will at some stage give full rudder to counteract this, but unless you let out the mainsail, or have good boat speed, you will not get back on course within the prescribed 10 seconds.

Are you sure it is an hydraulic autopilot?

The steering system shown in the pictures is a push/pull system that IMO is not strong enough. I had the same kind of system on my Tobago. That had plastic gears/teeth that could not handle big rudder loads.

One explanation for the damage shown:

Foresail down, boat rounds up into the wind and waves and stops. Autopilot has rudders fully turned to one side. The boat slides backwards down a wave, and the forces on the steering system far exceed what it is designed for, and the cables are pulled out of the steering box as shown.
Autopilot is set to STBY and you take the helm, wheel is "locked" due to the damage caused, you use force, and the gears in the steering box push the damaged cables out to one side..
There are probably no mechanical rudder stops to protect the steering system either.

Cost savings in the design and choice of steering components are probably the primary cause of the damage, not you using a bit of force on the wheel.

The forces on a balanced spade rudder when reversing at speed, and the rudder not centered are enormous, and far exceed what the steering system can handle.

Does this sound plausible?

IMO, these "plastic" steering systems are not good enough for a cat designed for offshore sailing, they are good for turning outboards on motorboats. I have replaced mine with an hydraulic system.


Alan
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:09   #35
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I noticed on an image I posted below, that the brand of the autopilot was Furuno, if that is of any interest.
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:19   #36
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that sounds very plausible indeed.

hydraulic? Well, as you can tell I am not that experienced into modern auto-pilots, but I did not see anything that told me 'AH, that is the hydraulic system'. It could be hidden somewhere, and I did not look all over for it. All I do know, is that the auto pilot manual with the lipari had an error message, that I think to remember was the one I saw. And that error message mentioned to check the hydraulic system.

No reason guessing, I will take your comments and query about it.
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:20   #37
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Originally Posted by berntsen View Post
I noticed on an image I posted below, that the brand of the autopilot was Furuno, if that is of any interest.

Not really, as that is just the "box" that controls some kind of actuator that turns the rudders. My guess is that it is not hydraulic.

When on autopilot, did the wheel turn or was it stationary?

Alan
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:27   #38
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lipari autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Not really, as that is just the "box" that controls some kind of actuator that turns the rudders. My guess is that it is not hydraulic.

When on autopilot, did the wheel turn or was it stationary?

Alan
The manual also had furona on it. But you're probably right. The hydraulic system was only mentioned on one system diagram, and only as a rectangle with a text in it.

I cannot recall whether the wheel turned or not, too much else ended up catching my attention.

Btw. I just got word that the lipari is on the way to Orust. I will follow up and return with info on the auto-pilot.

/\/ikolaj
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:33   #39
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Looking at the picture with the broken/chafed halyard, the distance between the top swivel and the chafing seems way too short IMO, it looks like about 150-200 mms and is probably the cause of this problem. Doyou have a picture of the mast and rigging where the forestay is attached to the mast?

Alan
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:50   #40
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Looking at the picture with the broken/chafed halyard, the distance between the top swivel and the chafing seems way too short IMO, it looks like about 150-200 mms and is probably the cause of this problem. Doyou have a picture of the mast and rigging where the forestay is attached to the mast?

Alan
Like this one (full res), or this one (full res)?
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:57   #41
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The second picture shows how short the distance is. As soon as the foresail is let out, chafing will start due to the design of the exit from the mast and the short distance.

Maybe the genoa can be pulled down a bit further?

Alan
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Old 19-08-2009, 00:33   #42
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I once lost my top swivel on on my roller furling system, it sheared off and dropped the sail a few feet an then jammed. It was in a race in big seas near Vulcan rock off the Sentinal outside Houtbay (where they have the big wave surfing competitions!). The winnd was 30 to 40 knots, the sail was flapping itself to pieces and risking damage to the rig, there was no way of furling it using the furler or getting it down unless you went up the mast. By sailing in circles we managed to furl it around the forestay and continue under main alone. I know this would not have helped as you had no steering, but something which sounds obvious on shore, not so obvious when you are in the situation
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Old 19-08-2009, 03:55   #43
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Sorry Berntsen, i looked at the pictures and i could se a face i have seen before. and i belived it was you. Thanks for all the good info.
The Lipari had wire and not Hyd steering. just like the Lavezzi.
But the autopilot is hyd.
And i also belive just what Nordic cat is writing is what happend.
So then it would be better to build the steering - to hyd.
You dont have any rudderfeeling when sailing anyway so hyd would be best. and stronger.
Looking forwaord to look at ere and compair here to the new Lagonn 400 it will be there to. i just hope the weather will be not to rainy.......
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Old 20-08-2009, 02:54   #44
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I had a detailed study of Lipari 41 the other day.

The base price is 230.000 Euro, lets say that's fine. I have chosen the Maestro (3 cabin) and Oceanic Version (24.360 Euro+) and some other extras. The options total was 79.600 Euro. In those were "A/C - Generator - Watermaker" NOT included!! Genaker is included. Total list price was 309.000 Euros.

%35 of the base price, I must pay as options!! Thats a lot of money. Another strange thing is although that wasn't in my options list, they charge 21.000 Euros to transfer the boat from La Rochelle to South France and rigging. The same operation in La Rochelle is 6.000 Euros. 15.000 Euros for transfer to South France?? Way too much price difference.

With the new Lagoon 400 it is more or less the same story. Base price 228.000 Euros, my options total is 60.000 Euros. (%26) Also in those prices A/C, generator, watermaker were NOT included.

With so much very nice used boats for sale, that price strategy puts me off buying a new boat and go for a used one.
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Old 20-08-2009, 06:21   #45
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Well, new is new, and used is used.
got mail from the lokal dealer, The Lipari is OK and lokation, Orust. ready for the show.
The lagoon 400 will be there to so we will check them out.
My wife(admiral), will tell me wicth one she likes.
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