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Old 29-04-2019, 23:52   #1
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Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Doing some research on a 40 odd foot cat and have always liked the FPs and was just wondering how the newer FPs fair going to wind?

Ive sailed on a lipari a few times and found it happy at up to 40 AWA in slight seas but pretty prone to wave action.

In some decent seas it was more like 45. Fair bit of leeway apparent so maybe tack through 110 in the slop.

How does this compare to the current models? similar?

How about motion? Any hobby horsing in the 40 (really 38) footer in the wrong conditions? I Imagine the 41 foot Astrea has little of this?

Whats the honest real world experience you guys and gals are seeing?

thanks
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:54   #2
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Just came back from a weeks charter on a Helia 44. I loved many things with that boat, but upwind ability was very bad. We had to put 120 degrees on the AP for the tacks.
Maybe some owner with a boat with better sails can comment too....?
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:08   #3
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

You are making a serious mistake in evaluating ANY boat's windward performance based on AWA. It doesn't matter a bit! This is a number that is only used by salesman to snooker the inexperienced sailor or somebody else who wants to hide a boat's true performance..

COG&SOG is the only thing that matters, and if you really want to understand the issue, you use Velocity Made Good (VMG) to windward.

I'll tell you right up front that tacking through 110 degrees of AWA is TERRIBLE! Do the vector math, and see what that actually comes out to in SOG and COG....

Just to make up an example...

If you have an AWA of 55 deg, a boat speed of 7 knots, and a true wind speed of 15 knots, your VMG to the wind is 1.5 knots... and that assumes ZERO leeway!

Put in your own numbers and see what you get. See if you can make up a reasonable combination of boat speed and wind speed that looks good tacking through an AWA of 110 deg.

AWA Calculator
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Old 07-05-2019, 17:17   #4
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
You are making a serious mistake in evaluating ANY boat's windward performance based on AWA. It doesn't matter a bit! This is a number that is only used by salesman to snooker the inexperienced sailor or somebody else who wants to hide a boat's true performance..

COG&SOG is the only thing that matters, and if you really want to understand the issue, you use Velocity Made Good (VMG) to windward.

I'll tell you right up front that tacking through 110 degrees of AWA is TERRIBLE! Do the vector math, and see what that actually comes out to in SOG and COG....

Just to make up an example...

If you have an AWA of 55 deg, a boat speed of 7 knots, and a true wind speed of 15 knots, your VMG to the wind is 1.5 knots... and that assumes ZERO leeway!

Put in your own numbers and see what you get. See if you can make up a reasonable combination of boat speed and wind speed that looks good tacking through an AWA of 110 deg.

AWA Calculator
A bit harsh but I see your point. Awa is something most sailors pay attention to. Vmg not so much which is why I couched it in those terms not because I'm havin g the wool pulled by a salesperson.

To be clear when I say tack through 110 degrees I do actually mean cog but the waters start getting muddied when you start mixing terminology around let alone when you add in different tws.

Yes 120 awa ( not cog) is atrocious for the helia. The sails must be trashed ( I hope).

110 tacking angle cog is not great but acceptable in a seaway. I would hope for better in flattish water.

My last cat had daggerboards thin hulls and low windage and tacked through 85 to 90 cog. I know if I want better accommodation I'm going to give that up but just how much is the question at hand....
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Old 07-05-2019, 18:33   #5
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

I'm assuming that 110 degree tacking angle is really TWA. You make 57% VMG at that angle. If AWA of 110 degrees as mentioned above you are really sailing 78% off the wind or almost a beam reach, never really going to weather. Stay in port and enjoy the advantages of a catamaran.
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Old 07-05-2019, 18:41   #6
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzmeyer View Post
I'm assuming that 110 degree tacking angle is really TWA. You make 57% VMG at that angle. If AWA of 110 degrees as mentioned above you are really sailing 78% off the wind or almost a beam reach, never really going to weather. Stay in port and enjoy the advantages of a catamaran.
you dont have to assume anything - you could just read the post hmm? who talks about tacking angles in awa terms?

seems like the only actual response has been from a charterer (thanks) why is that?

you have a saona? how does that go?
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Old 07-05-2019, 18:55   #7
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Barra - not aware of any boats that tack through 156 degrees true so please excuse my assumption. I didn't mean to offend. Don't have my Saona yet. The only cat I've ever crewed on is US 1 Stars and Stripes in 1988. Had no problem going to weather so I expect pretty much the same from my Saona.
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Old 10-05-2019, 17:45   #8
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Well this is interesting. No owners want to comment on their boats real life windward performance....
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Old 10-05-2019, 21:27   #9
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Barra, if you go to the 33rd page of the Astrea 42 thread Brian posted a sailing review on his (hull #11) about a week ago. He was thrilled. Doesn’t even have his Code 0 or Parasailot yet. Just the standard FP sails.
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Old 22-05-2019, 06:44   #10
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

OP, possibly mixed up on the terms you used, but I understand what you are asking. If you are sailing close hauled and need to tack, how many degrees off the original tack will you be on the next tack? Correct?

I can say on my Lagoon 380, and would think that to be about the same for the Lucia, and maybe even the Astrea, the boat sails great at 55 deg off the wind. Very good at 50. Holding OK to 45. But quite a bit of leeway at 45 down to 42. So I would say if you push things, you can about 90 deg though with lots of leeway, so you are not really going to beat up a channel at 90. Normally, my AP is set for 100 deg.

If you are used to sailing a J boat, this is not going to make you happy...

If you need to actually make progress directly into the wind, you need to motor, you cannot really beat up into it and make real progress. If you are just out for a daysail, and don't mind tacking then motoring, at 50 deg you will be moving very well on a Lucia.
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Old 22-05-2019, 07:01   #11
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

True or apparent?
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Old 23-05-2019, 19:31   #12
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

^^^^ If its the autopilot setting its going to be AWA im thinking so yeah these are not great numbers especially once you add in leeway.

Actually I would have thought the lagoon 380 would do better than that but ive never sailed one. Obviously good sails make quite a difference maybe they are worn out.
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Old 27-05-2019, 02:27   #13
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

If you are close hauled under autopilot with Garmin equipment add another 10deg, it is hopeless.
My Lucia will sail at a bit under 35 apparent in flat water but with any sort of sea you are looking at 40. Hand steering of course. I use the autopilot tacking feature to free my hands for working the sheets. I set my autopilot tacking angle at 100deg and have not missed a tack yet.
Hope that helps.
PS Gentlemen cuisers always sail off the wind so who cares! Seriously you have to give up something for comfort and we find her very easy to live on for 6 months at a time.
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Old 27-05-2019, 02:28   #14
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Apparent angles
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Old 27-05-2019, 06:22   #15
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Re: Lucia / Astrea windward performance

Thanks for an owners reply and seems similar to my lipari experience then. Maybe its the 38 feet but they do seem to be more affected by seas than my old 42 foot cat all things being equal. Also similar to a sail I had on a leopard 38. That one got caught in irons a couple times till we backed the jib on the tacks. Ok in flat water but once the seas had built it struggled.

Fully agree everything is a compromise and we are looking for more accommodation and less performance this time around.
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