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Old 29-09-2018, 16:41   #46
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Mooloolaba, Queensland, Australia
Boat: 2015 Fountaine Pajot SABA 50
Posts: 348
Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed91e View Post
Very interesting thread. We are in shopping around for a Helia, and if that was the (previous) choice of someone with such attention to details as you Steven I believe we are on the right track.
Thanks for all the insightful posts.
Hello ED91e.....
Thank you for the kind words of appreciation... Here is one better yet for you, during the years I had the Helia 44 AVALON, I did a Thread on the Helia.. It went of for quite a while, maybe 50 posts, and about 52,000 viewings: Improvements on the Helia 44... Look back down a couple of pages on this Category and you will find it.. Conversion to Capilano Hydraulic steering, ventilation hatches, rigging, all sorts of bits and pieces that will be a big help to you. The Fountaine Pajots are the "Gourmet" Cruising Yacht.. You are on the right track...

**********************
Calm Seas Quest: I will get started on that today. Through some interesting twists in life I got to test a lot of new anchors, and spent three months cruising up and down from the GBR to Mooloolaba and back with the Ultra. I will get started on it today... I DO HAVE some interesting results for you, and some inside information coming..

Kind regards, Steven, Old School Cruiser
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Old 29-09-2018, 19:33   #47
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Location: Mooloolaba, Queensland, Australia
Boat: 2015 Fountaine Pajot SABA 50
Posts: 348
Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest View Post
Very much looking forward to your comments, especially regarding your impressions of your Ultra. I'm about to place an order for a 48kg Ultra, #13 swivel and 100M of 12mm G6+ 318L CROMOX Duplex SS chain for our Saba.

Thanks!
Right Oh, Calm Seas Quest, I am pleased that you value my contribution and so I will invest in you with an in depth report that relates to you. Anchors first, but a serious comment on chain second, that will be a surprise. I am back resting in Abell Point Marina, after a week ten days out beachcombing and diving at the Islands and Great Barrier Reef. I will do this in the two parts so it is not so tedious to write all up and too long to read...

First of all, the Anchors. This may be the ultimate anchor Post... Not out of opinion, but of owning and setting them in the toughest of conditions.. Losing one in the GBR 60 miles offshore, and wrecking another in the tougest anchoring conditions on earth..

To get close to the GBR, (Great Barrier Reef), you end up anchoring in rocky coral bottom, and sometimes in the bigger coral "Bommies" on the bottom. They are larger coral covered rocks growing towards the surface. You see them in the Carib as well and have to look out for them in lagoons here in the GBR but also on the outskirts of the main reef. I lost my Ultra... But I have it marked on my GPS and know where it is, about 300 nm from here sort of half way home on the outer reef. North-South wind shift over night, and east west current change with tides, and I wound up and through tangled in the Bommies. I tugged every direction I could, murky water, strong current, my dive skills and gear a bit out of condition, and I was not going to give up and leave my Ultra 48 kg, but not going to die for it either. I tugged so hard, I destroyed the roller assembly roller, and snubber let go as I was winching in and I back pedaled the Quick vertical capstan and gypsy 1500 watt windlass in reverse under forward full load and ruined the armature on the windlass motor with the momentum of 17 tons to a taunt chain.

I was not going to leave my Ultra, but in 50 feet of water and weather change, I wrecked a lot of gear and finally had to cut off 42 Metres of my top 13mm chain tangled up in Bommies down there, and left my Ultra behind. I hope to catch the weather right on the way home, and have had a Dive Master tune me up and my gear up, so hopefully I will recover it on a slack tide and no wind.... Maybe.... Hope hope

I also carry a whole spare Quick Windlass, so in a few hours labor at a safe anchorage I swapped out the whole windlass. On inspection, the transmission and gypsy and rope capstan shafts and mechanisms were perfect. In hindsight I recommend you only carry a spare 1500 watt Quick Windlass Motor…. But I am the only person to put it to that much grief and hard core testing… I could not dive on it, gear out of date and not good, and me rusty, I battled for an hour tugging all directions to try and free it before being defeated and cutting off all the chain I could retrieve. I lost 42 meters tangled in the Bommies, out of 80 meters I carried… BUMMER…

Now on anchors!!
I had get a spare main anchor, a Mantus 48 kg. I have had a Rocna and would have gotten one of them, but they are missing a size. They go from 40 kg all the way up to 55 kg (123 lb). The 40 size was too small for a main hook for the Saba 50 IMO, and I was afraid the 55 might not fit and was too large OK... Hmmm

Anyway, I have lived with a Rocna for years, GREAT ANCHOR... Just not one in my Saba 50 size IMO. On the Ultra: Here in Australia, the 48 kg Ultra is A$ 4500-$5000 !! Beautiful polished stainless, about as good as any of the best of the plow sorts that have been tested, sets well, but there is another breed of anchors that I just think are better value for 1/3 of the money. Rocna, Manson Supreme, And Mantus 48 kg.. Watch the U-Tube tests on setting the Mantus, it sets IMMEDIATELY because the hoop goes out past the plow, wider than the Rocna and Manson Supreme. It also unbolts and can be flat packed. Look at the first two pictures and you will see the Manson Supreme in 100 lb, and the Mantus 105 lb. Anyway, IF the Ultra was the same money, I would have considered getting another 48 kg, but it is THREE TIMES the cost here in Australia, and the Rocna and Manson Supreme, and Mantus all set faster and hold better. They are all called SHHP Anchors, Super High Holding Power. Here is my Saga owning all of them:

The Ultra is probably as good of a plow as you can get. However, I do think the Rocna and the Manson Supreme set faster and better, and the Mantus sets THE FASTEST of them all. It also can be flat packed as it bolts together with (6) 3/4" super strong bolts. There was no Rocna in the right size IMO, and there was NO Manson Supreme in 100 or 120 lb, in stock in Australia... Unbelievable.. Anyway I got a Mantus, and was very happy with it. However, I again pushed the limits to court disaster.

My Son and new Wife flew down to the GBR for a week offshore... They wanted to go to this Island/Reef that was all a jumble of broken coral and shells to go shelling and beach combing and snorkeling.. The wind was up, I took a chance, and anchored in the Bommies again didn't I... While we were ashore maybe two hours in the Tender, my Wife on board the yacht, about half meter windwaves in choppy seas behind the islet. We took a chance in marginal weather and it back fired in my face again... Long story short, I drug a little or set the hook into a tangle in the Bommies and could not retrieve the Mantus later. I did not want to dive in the murk and current, so I did the stupid "Destroy Gear tugging on it from different directions with 17 tons" thing again. My Saba must weigh 17-18 tons fully loaded with full tanks and extra gear (guessing) and that much momentum can really wreck things... I destroyed the Mantus, tore the hoop off one side, and bent the main shank. I spent the hour getting my dive gear out and suiting up, and walked the Mantus anchor out from behind two Bommies. Then I grabbed the chain and walked it over the top of one of the Bommies to clear it. A Dive Master had tuned me and my gear up so I was able to do this dive and save the Mantus and chain.

Long story short, I totally wrecked the Mantus, with about a dozen tugs in different directions, with a snubber on to protect the windlass, trying not to have to dive. 17-18 tons to taunt chain, pulled Mantus between two steep Bommies and wrecked it. I have learned my lesson, and will not do that again as that much momentum to dead tug on chain can destroy any anchor...

Important Tip: If (when) I anchor in the Bommies again, I will put a fat large fender and heavy line on the anchor
at that depth and a couple of meters, as a marker and be able to pull it out of the Bommies in reverse if I get totally hung up... Looking at it, most of the time with the anchor off the chain, you can pull the chain out. If I cannot retrieve it all from the other end, I will take off the anchor and try getting the chain out from the setting end..

The big surprise is, I told the story to Mantus themselves, and they decided to send me a new anchor... A BRAND NEW MANTUS ANCHOR to replace the one I destroyed!! Two weeks later, and it was here at Abell Point Marina!! UNBELIEVABLE SERVICE AND GUARANTEE!!
It is hear on on the Saba 50, I still cannot believe it.. That says a lot for the Mantus Company, to do something like that!!


In the mean time, waiting for the Mantus replacement, I had found a 100 lb Manson Supreme, and continued cruising, setting is maybe 30 times as we moved around beach combing and snorkeling and diving and two hard couple day blows over 25-30 knots.. The Rocna on the Helia always set well and hard. The Manson only failed to set once on a muddy clay bottom, and when I drug it up only one side of the fluke was covered in 20 lbs of clay. With only weeks of testing, I would say the Rocna might have the edge on setting in mud and clay due to a longer shank, but they are both comparable. The only problem is the Manson Supreme will not roll over in the anchor well cut out, if it comes up up-side down, because the shank is too wide (tall) due to the slot in it. You have to reach down with a boat hook and roll it around to the right position before you suck it up into the Saba 50, or Helia 44 for that matter, OK? So of the two, Rocna wins out. However, with only 88 lb and 122 lb (40 kg and 55 kg) there was no size right for me, so I got the Mantus 48 kg. I have to say the Mantus was the best. Really: it was magic, sets the fastest, holds the hardest, shank about the size of the Rocna, rolls over easy in the anchor hull slot, sets in place snug and fits the F.P. style.. a fantastic anchor..

I have now gotten another Mantus 48 kg, the new replacement, shank much like the Rocna, and it rolls over if it comes up the wrong direction.. I have played with it, UP AND DOWN, regretted having destroyed the last one, and anyway I have decided THIS IS THE ANCHOR for me.
I am going to repair the old one, take a 10 ton truck and see if I can flatten out the shank, weld up and fabricate the hoop again, and send the parts off to be hot dip galvanized again.. Why? It is that great, and comes apart, and I can keep it flat packed in the anchor locker as my spare BIG hook... I would recommend it as THE ANCHOR, as it sets so bloody fast and holds so hard, and can flat pack as a spare!! Why does it set so fast on U-Tube in the tests against the other SHHP anchors? Look at pictures one and two at the end of this Post, the hoops on the Mantus are out further than the Rocna and Manson... This is why IMO it sets the fastest, and the shape makes it set the hardest IMO..

And one more thing, this is the biggest yacht I have owned... I mean twin diesels and some slack and you can really get some momentum up, and for the first time I can destroy anchors. I hope I was only tugging on the 13mm chain connected to the Ultra, or it will be wrecked as well..

I would rank them Mantus Number One, Rocna Two, Manson Supreme three, and Ultra fourth. The only problem with the Ultra, is polished stainless and three times the price, and I do not think it sets as fast as 1,2,and 3... IMO having cruised with it for three -four months I just do not have the confidence of holding power of the Ultra, as I do using 1,2,and 3, choices at 1/3 the cost of the Ultra. If I get it back, I may not do the big project of repairing the Mantus I destroyed, and might make a stainless roller and rack for it up on the front in place of the mooring roller or along side on SHOW AND TELL...

First picture, 100 lb Manson Supreme, Second Picture Mantus 48 kg... Note the pictures do not do it justice, the Mantus flukes are larger than they look, the picture is at a longer distance. Anyway, you can see the wider hoop bar. Very strong set up..

Stay tuned for part two, rode-chain, and extra rollers, and increased shaft on main roller FOR SURE...

Kind Regards, Helia 44, Blessed to be in the GBR on a SABA 50 !!!
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Old 30-09-2018, 15:44   #48
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest View Post
Very much looking forward to your comments, especially regarding your impressions of your Ultra. I'm about to place an order for a 48kg Ultra, #13 swivel and 100M of 12mm G6+ 318L CROMOX Duplex SS chain for our Saba.
Thanks!
Right oh "Calm Seas Quest", here is Part Two of this as it relates specifically to you... And look, I don't have anything against the Ultra, but it big draw is the shiny stainless shape, for 1/3 the money there are better anchors IMO, like the SHHP anchors I show you in the Post above. Now don't get me wrong, the big shine of the stainless Ultra is very appealing, I will make a concerted effort to get mine back off the edge of the outer reef, on the way home to Mooloolaba next month. It is about 300 NM away, and good weather and slack tide, I hope all the extreme tugging on it did not wreck it as well. I have been told the shank is hollow. If I can I will retrieve it no matter what. What a Trophy for my deck...

If I cannot recover the Ultra, or if it is destroyed, I do not think I would spend the $$ to get a new one even though I am well off. I was a poor street kid, and that and the Blessing of the Lord has driven me to success, so it is not a matter of money as obviously not for you as well. Money is not the issue, as you are obviously well off to order a new SABA 50, and be thinking of a polished stainless Ultra and stainless chain!! It is more of cost effective use of such, OK?

Anyway, the shine appeals to me as well, as does the corrosion resistance., and it will do fine if you are set on it. Be forewarned though, most people end up polishing them every month or two as they tarnish... It is hard to get to on a big Cat. If I get mine back in good condition, it will go into a custom made anchor rack and roller on the bow for good looks and and a second hook. But my primary working anchor will be the SHHP shown in the above Post. They seem to set super fast and hard, and you can hang on a shorter scope for some reason.

When I replace my trapeze material in the new high tech stronger stuff, (another topic) I will make some kind of a cut out over the anchor and bridle assemble to service it better..

Now on to your other great shiny idea: The Stainless Chain!! Hey, I am with you, love it! I thought Stainless Anchor, Stainless Chain, no rust, good looking, long term, good investment, GREAT!! HOWEVER: On investigation I decided not to. I have some connections to the Mooloolaba big prawn and fishing trawler fleet, and they talked me out of it. When inexpensive stainless chain started coming on line years ago they all switched over to it. In hard working trawlers the galvanized chain is a mess in only a year or two, and it made good sense. After a number of years they almost all bigger trawlers uniformly abandoned the stainless chain. They convinced me that it work-hardened and failed in due course..

Now, I still like the idea of stainless chain. But the Quick windlass from the Euro is a nice bit of gear. And in Europe the Fountain Pajot supply a very good 13mm chain that is slightly larger than the American 1/2". Two things: It is stronger, 7500 kg working load. Secondly the galvanizing is fantastically hard. Mine is still very good and it drug over stainless bars instead of rollers and should not be in such good condition.. Hence my concerns on your idea of stainless chain. It could be fine, but I abandoned the idea myself.

Which brings me to rollers: Tugging from all directions completely destroyed my roller shaft. Now I made several mistakes because I was tired. I should have put a chain hook snubber on the chain, but still the load would probably have destroyed the shaft on the main black rubber anchor roller and stainless chock assembly, as it is only 10 mm (3/8"). I drilled it out, put in a 1/2", so far so good. I also have built two intermediate rollers. One take over from the large stainless roller bar up near the windlass. The other is an auxiliary roller just inside the hull where the stainless chock and roller bolts on. Both seem to reduce friction, and drag where the anchor chain would rub on stainless surrounds...

Now, pardon the pictures, I built these out of what was on hand, and poly boat trailer rollers. When I am back home I will upgrade the whole lot to stainless and proper design and reinforcing. I have access to a stainless fabrication shop that owes me...

Anyway, these prototypes do work. Pardon the rough look of things in the pictures. In the inside of the hull one, off to the side is an automatic salt water wash down nozzle. It was just outside the hull, and I ripped it off, didn't I..... I will rebuild it when I reinforce and build the anchor roller assembly stronger. There is another nozzle built into the roller assembly, so at a switch the chain is in a mini car wash being blasted clean. Wrecked by me, upgraded when I get home. The bottom of the opening has an additional roller to spread the load and the chain also rubbed on the stainless. It seems to run on the two rollers with less friction, distributing the load. I will re build the bodgy job here in the remote parts, with proper stainless fittings when I get home.

The top roller up by the anchor windlass, used to just have a big stainless bar the chain ran over. The Euro 13mm chain galvanizing is so tough it did not bother it. However, it was noisy and I think again the roller seems to reduce the load. I will plate over the entire area in stainless, with stainless mounts and the new poly boat trailer roller.

Anyway, I should have put on an additional snubber and chain hook. I even tore up and snapped my bridle !! I was not going to lose my beautiful Ultra stainless anchor, and in frustration I ripped up everything trying to get it out. With this big of a yacht, you can really do some damage.. I was tired, and depressed about it, and all I did was cost myself more work and damage.

In the pictures: I have replaced the bridle with stronger material. It comes up out of the anchor well, through the mooring line cut out in the anchor locker top under the hatch lid, and I have a snap shackle on the bridle as well. I added a stainless eye, and I snap shackle the end of the bridle and chain hook to the stainless eye for storage of the bridle when sailing. I drilled the big chain hook out and have a tie rope to tie the chain hook of the bridle onto the chain so it cannot fall off. I also put the snap shackle on the anchor chain above the chain hook, so if it does come off I don't have the painful exercise of retrieving the lost bridal hanging...

The first two pictures are of the roller upgrade (prototypes, forgive their crudeness).. The third picture shows the bridle pulled up, and it goes out a slot in the F.P. design to run a mooring line through to the big cleat. The last picture shows how I safely store the bridle, snap shackled to the stainless eye, and the tie rope drilled through the chain hook to tie it on to the anchor chain...

Resting up during a two day blow of 25-30 knots, safely snug in Abell Point Marina for a couple of days blow of SE Tradewinds.. I hope this endeavor and large posts help you along your way...

Kind regards, aboard SABA 50 "SERENITY"
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Old 07-10-2018, 16:36   #49
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Right Oh,
"Calm Seas Quest", and "ed91e",
and of course any others following this F.P. Thread....

This will be the last in the anchor series.. I am down in Abell Point Marina where there is about a 100 Charter Boat fleet. On the vertical capstan and gypsy anchor windlasses, the most dominant ones are Muir and Quick.

The Quick is Italian made, so most common on F.P. yachts. Here it is evenly spread opinions between the two. When exposed to salt water and the elements, there is a slight edge of favor on the Muir due to a supposed better seal on the shaft. However, they tend to run things until they break, and I think this is just lack of maintenance. It is a four bolt affair and you can drop the entire Quick windlass down from underneath, so it is a couple of hour job every say two years? In is of no import to the F.P. that have the anchor locker covered by a hatch, not bashing into the seas like on an exposed monohull. I think the favor to Muir is it is right here in New Zealand, where the Quick is Italian for the French yachts. I like the robustness of the Quick and think it is overbuilt...

That is the first picture. Now I have pulled my Quick, and three years on the shaft and transmission were not only MASSIVE on this 1500 watt unit, but the motor is out of the way horizontal and off to the side. I can see no problems. I carry a full extra Quick windlass packed disassembled into the three major components, in a tub in the fore peak. The transmission gear from horizontal to vertical gear, shaft and housing, are massive beyond the needs of the windlass. I could have just gone for the motor alone as a spare, but it is done. Probably better than the money in the bank..

Now the reason for this last in the ground tackle and anchor thread is that Quick off this really nice remote, digital anchor chain counter, and up and down buttons, for a remote at the helm. I cannot recommend it enough. It is programmable on screen for a number of functions, but I just use the counter for meters of chain out, and the remote controls for the windlass. It is really great for single-handling as I do..

The first picture is of the Quick digital counter and up and down buttons in relation to the helm for size. The second is close up of it. For single handling I cannot recommend it more, it is that good. You can pick your spot and dump the anchor, and you can motor to the anchor as you haul in the chain. Now I usually do it from a remote up front, hand control on a long lead, so I can wash off the chain and anchor as I haul it. However, in a pinch, in a blow, I can do it from the cockpit.

The Italians have done a great job of both the windlass and this remote. It is a relief not to have to put on 10 meter marks once or twice a year on the chain, I have a counter now in digital big numbers.

I hope this is a help to you...

Kind regards, Steve on the SABA 50 "SERENITY"
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Old 17-11-2018, 13:40   #50
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello Fountain Pajot Gourmet Yacht Lovers!!

I am back from the Whitsundays, and now that I have gone cruising with "Serenity" for a few months I am into the serious improvements to make things better...

The biggest one, and a warning to all Saba 50 Owners that have the 11 kva Cummins Onan, (AND NOTE FOUNTAINE PAJOT!!) at about 500 hours you need to get to the far side of the Cummins Onan for maintenance. F.P. I understand it is an easy error to make, as you push the smaller Fisher-Panda generators but some of us like the Cummins Onan as it is an over sized tractor engine and gen set that will last probably 10,000 hours. Not compact and fussy like the smaller units...

Anyway, there is no access. You need to get back there to change the anode, and be able to cook out clean of the heat exchanger, and even to adjust the belt on the alternator. NO ACCESS. And no, I thought about build a slide out in stainless under the gen set, but it will not come out over the top of the Volvo Penta. So no.. The first picture is of my fridge freezer for fishing in route, with a table top for the BBQ, the hatch will go about half underneath that. The second picture is of my design to correct this with a sub-deck stainless frame for access hatch.. It is in 2mm stainless and will screw up under the aft deck floor. I am going to put it on with structural Sika-Flex adhesive sealant and screwed up from underneath about every 50mm. All that will be visible is the cut out and sanded gap, which will be sanded smooth, be epoxy sealed and painted white. This hatch will be 500 mm x 600 mm clear opening inside..

The third picture is a close up, to show the inner frame 10mm lower than the outer frame, all one piece in mirror stainless, with a gutter drain 50mm x 50mm. The inner frame is where the cut out deck piece will sit, on an automotive rubber door welt. I will add four engine room style hatch locks and lifts, as it will lift clear out for maintenance about once a year. There are two drains, fore and aft, that will go to a thru-hull in the tunnel of the cat.

Fountain Pajot NOTE: Yes this is an error in design, one of the few.. You should do this in the construction phase in matching fibreglass to the engine room hatch... You made one of the few design errors is a very beautiful Yacht the SABA 50. If you are going to offer the bigger Gen-set, you need to do the right thing and make access for maintenance. (Your were obviously not aware of the maintenance requirements on the inner side. I have to do it this way in a stainless inner frame and cut in hatch..

Other projects: I have also slightly widened and reinforced the bow roller stainless rack in the anchor locker. It now has solid 19mm rods on the outside that greatly strengthen it, and is flared out slightly. Why? I want to add on full length ribs of about 50mm square in poly ethylene or poly urethane block, relieved in the center of one long side to bolt over the edge of the stainless. This will allow the chain to be hauled in at an angle, over the covered edge of the rack and roller... It will reduce drag, save galvanizing, and speed up chain recovery... All I have done for now is the stainless reinforcing mods and drilled it out to take a 16mm bolt for the roller, and it is bolted back on. Sorry I did not get pictures. When in haulout in May I will show pictures of it completed with the full length rubbing strakes on the edges...

Anyway, fourth picture for fun, two of the best fish caught this season in the channel north of Pentacost Island in the Whitsundays: The first is a Blue Ocean Spanish King Mackeral, 1.4 meters sort of 4 1/2 feet. The second is a Blue Fin Tuna. The fillet steaks of both taste about the same, very good.

The fifth and sixth pictures are of some of the beach combing goodies for this season.... I hope you enjoy the improvements and pictures of the bounty!!

Kind regards, Helia 44, now Blessed to be on a Saba 50, IMO the greatest single-handed-able private luxury yacht in the world
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Old 17-11-2018, 23:14   #51
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Boat: Fountaine Pajot Saba 50 catamaran
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Thanks for the very informative post. We have the same generator so will be faced with a similar situation. Cheers Nic
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Old 18-11-2018, 15:30   #52
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

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Originally Posted by Lady Roslyn View Post
Thanks for the very informative post. We have the same generator so will be faced with a similar situation. Cheers Nic
Hello Nic,
It is worth my efforts it I help even one person, so great!! I am sure there will be more.. Nic, my way of doing it is the way a Boatyard would. I called around to confirm this to the bigger boat yards like Boatworks in Coomera. It is one of the largest and most refined, 23 acres of concrete cover, buildings to house advanced work, and 21 Businesses on premises, laundry and restaurant and bar... Wow, best in the world, anyway: Trying to do the matching way of exposed gelcoat and fiberglass gutter like the engine room covers is very desirable but near impossible in cost and time..

Now you have to access the heat exchanger to boil it out about every 500 hours. I am going to try and just soak it in a 50/50 vinegar mix to dissolve all the calcium and mineral build up from the salt water side, calcium and the rest instead of sending it out to a radiator shop.. But also, Nic this is very important: If you find vanes missing on your salt water pump impeller, (does happen) they lodge in the heat exchanger. The Service Guys might not tell you, or know about this, but it will eventually be a problem.. You need to check on this, as I have had the salt water system modified on mine because it was doing it with regularity at about 100-150 hours, and the salt water pump impeller looses vans that end up in the heat exchanger. You have to take the end off the heat exchanger to pull them out...

Anyway, that, and the anode, and the belt adjust on the alternator, all have to accessed from the back side.. F.P. just do not understand this, so a warning to all those with a Saba 50 on order, yes the Cummins Onan is the most robust generator, but this is a flaw and the need to put in an access hatch...

Glad I can help, nice that you appreciate my efforts!
Kind regards, Saba 50 "Serenity"
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Old 19-11-2018, 20:58   #53
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Boat: 2015 Fountaine Pajot SABA 50
Posts: 348
Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello Gourmet Yacht Lovers....

And ATTENTION FOUNTAINE PAJOT.... Not having this access to the back side of the 11 kva Cummins Onan is a serious mistake, one of your few Design Engineering mistakes on the Fabulous SABA 50.. TAKE NOTE FOUNTAINE PAJOT.... (I am told you follow my Posts so this one is very important..)

Here is what you are missing on the back side of the 11kva Cummins Onan.. These pictures are shot through my new access hatch hole... All of these things are subject to Service, but the serious immediate ones you cannot do without are the belt tension on the alternator, the heat exchanger, and the anode... THESE ARE IMMEDIATE SERVICE ISSUES AT ABOUT 500 HOURS!!

First picture is of the identical access panel of the Cummins Onan, as you see in the engine room, here is the opposite side same sort of easy access panel...

Second picture is of the panel removed, same just two quarter turn bolts at the top and it lifts out to lay down in there..

Third picture is the heat exchanger in the lower left corner of the back...

Fourth picture is of the ANODE on the Heat Exchanger, this must be changed out maybe every two years or 500 hours...

Fifth picture, this is the starter and solenoid. Eventually this could be a Service issue or repair..

Sixth picture is the alternator, and the adjustment on the alternator for the belt tension...

FOUNTAINE PAJOT: You cannot access any of these, without the deck hatch on the back side. Heck you cannot even pull the 11 kva out without disassembling the top half of the Volvo Penta D2-75 engine, SO YOU NEED THIS ACCESS WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!

But note F.P. this is a lovely yacht, and I remain your Fan. This is the BEST I have ever even seen and I am Blessed to own this Saba 50...

NOTE TO SABA 50 OWNERS:
Let me know if you want my construction notes here in this Thread. Everything, mistakes and inspiration and invention, pioneering this access hatch, and yes I would do it again just about the same way...

Kind regards, Steven on the Saba 50 "Serenity"
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Old 20-11-2018, 08:02   #54
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Thanks Steve. I would appreciate your construction notes, total hours, etc to build this access panel. Is it watertight?
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Old 21-11-2018, 06:54   #55
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hi Helia 44
Our SABA 50 is in build so I forwarded your relevant observations to FP for their input and if our SABA can be modified in build. This is their comment.

For the maintenance, if you remove the cocoon of the generator, you have the access to the main component.
Would this work or is it impossible to remove the cocoon
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Old 21-11-2018, 07:30   #56
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

The Genset location is a major engineering failure.

Our Saba (Hull #106) is fitted with the 13.5KW Onan and due out of the factory the first week of December. I'm hoping (probably foolishly) they have addresses this issue or perhaps the 13.5 is differently positioned?
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Old 21-11-2018, 07:52   #57
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hi
Perhaps you too should send a note into FP for their input, perhaps if enough SABA owners ask for a modification they may oblige during the build phase
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Old 21-11-2018, 12:38   #58
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello Saba 50 Friends...

Of all the GREAT design and engineering in this lovely yacht, yes F.P. have failed here because of their lack of understanding of the maintenance and engineering required on the Cummins Onan... It is without a doubt the most robust Kubota tractor motor powered Generator and I would have it again if I ordered from new, however this lack of access is real issue..

Ikigai: I do not think you could remove the sound proof shroud with the available room, certainly not on mine, Hull # 11. I think F.P. are just blowing you off. I would demand they put in a deck hatch, and they do not like to do any "Custom Work" so you may have to do it after market like I have.. IMO there is NO WAY they are going to do this, they would have to change the deck mould to match the engine access hatch.

Now as to their response? Even if you were a 4'11 skinny Frenchman, a Contortionist, you would still not be able to reach in blind and work the other side, even if you knew the engine blind and in reverse. Their response and supposition is bull$hirt... Before yielding to this deck hatch project, I was daunted by worries of pioneering this major project so I tried everything NOT to do it.. However: I was worried about the anode so I hired a British Mechanic of very small compact stature, who was very familiar with the gen set, just to change the anode. I am 66, and a bit stiff and a bit fat, no hope of getting to it myself. He was very compact, and young and flexible. It was still a Contortionist job, on his side, hip on the engine, wormed up in scrape and pain on the aft end, working his way in to the point I was worried about him.. Look, he was brave and battled on and it still took an hour and a half just to change out the anode...He could barely reach it. He said sorry, but he would not be doing that again. Forget the rest, like removing the heat exchanger for maintenance..

My deck hatch is 500mm wide by 600 mm long, so I can lay down on the deck and reach all of that side, or actually sit down in the opening and access it... Pictures and more details will be forth coming. I am just waiting for a top trim piece, having decided to add a picture frame of 3mm stainless surrounds on top. Edges with be linnished round edged for safety, and it will be 15mm on the hatch, and 15mm on the deck, 30 mm wide all around. Tig and polished. Pictures forthcoming..

If you look above, the stainless gutter below the seam has two drains that will go to a thru hull above the waterline in the tunnel of the cat.. The cut out hatch piece sets down on an inner ledge on the gutter that is 9mm lower to allow for a rubber seal. See the pictures above. I do not like the cut edge, even sanded, so I have decided to have a stainless trim made up to cover it. Anyway there are some failures, and some triumphs to this project. I will show you what I did pioneering the effort, and no doubt you can improve upon it yourself. The deck is very stiff and strong and does not seem to flex even cut out, I am impressed with the construction and the balsa core stiffness, so don't worry about that. I sanded with an orbital sander and three coat epoxy sealed the edges.

If you want the details of my methods and more pictures, I will try and get it together in the next day. You can improve on it, I was pioneering and running blind and did the best I could. I have remove the end of the heat exchanger and look for any impeller vans that may have broken off. The original Owner said it was a problem in the first 200 hours, until they changed the salt water feed to power up the salt water so the impeller did not run dry for the first few seconds. It does not seem to be a problem now, but I will check it and show you the impeller after my initial 160 hours, and remove the end cap of the heat exchanger to look for any of the rubber vans in there. I love this gen-set and relied on it for the last four months up in the Whitsandays and Islands and atolls in between for water and power. I would guess I will be running it for about 200-250 hours per year for five-six months of cruising. Maybe a few weeks of air conditioning, but primarily for water making and power, and it is very economical on diesel...

All for now, 06:30 hours, in Mooloolaba Harbour, Australia... HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

Kind regards, a mug on a Saba 50 out on the last frontier of Australia, just 100 nautical miles south of the beginning of the Great Barrier Reef...

The Saba 50 is a fabulous Lifestyle, the most comfortable I have seen.. The Saba is also kind to your eye, probably the best of the lot, and sails better than She looks.
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Old 21-11-2018, 18:51   #59
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Addendum to the previous Post: Notes and pictures for you to decide if you can do it from the front by dismantling the shroud.. Hey give it a try..

MY BEST ADVICE, since it is doubtful those in Order are going to get a deck hatch in the Saba 50 from F.P., then take your time and decide later if you need it or not...
Mind you, I am putting pictures up that would make the job easier, but there was no one to do that for me so I opted to pioneer with the deck hatch... Try and manage without it, try getting to the anode, try accessing the heat exchanger to dismount it, try and adjust the belt tension on the alternator. If you can manage, congratulations. Starter and solenoid, forget that, no way...

If you cannot manage, I will post my construction notes on the deck hatch access no worries. I just have to get it organized. If you are young, extremely mechanical, smaller in stature, flexible, used to working in reverse by touch and feel running blind... Then maybe you can do it from the front like F.P. are trying to say. Me? I fit none of that, so it was a deck access hatch...

I wish I knew how to put the notes with the pictures, one at a time.. Hmmm First picture is of my half gunked up heat exchanger, at 416 hours now 11-22-2018. It is not extremely necessary to do right now, but I need to take it off and cook out the minerals by say 500 hours. Or at least before next season up in the Islands of the GBR...

Second and third pictures are to give you an idea of the access you would need to do it from the front. I think it is possible, but difficult, you need to access the shroud bolts top and bottom and see if you can remove the back shroud (identical to the front one) and the aft shroud and top shroud and maybe you can get to the bolts...

Fourth Picture is of the access from the front in the engine room with the inspection panel off (front shroud)... You can see it would be very difficult to get over the top to remove the back shroud, and Fifth picture shows you the room aft of the Cummins Onan rearward shroud. The only hope would be a contortionist move to work blind with the benefit of these pictures. You would need to remove the fuel filter and go in that way, but it would be difficult at the very best.... I could not do it..

The last picture is of the access hatch access that I have cut in, and it is all there for you, piece of cake. No for those of you in the Order stage, I am sorry but F.P. are not going to be much help IMO. What they need to do is alter their deck mould to suit a matching hatch. Try and see if you can do the access to the heat exchanger and anode, and the belt tension on the alternator, running blind and contortion fitting into it from the front. If not I will post my construction notes, when I get it organized, and you can improve on what I did. I would do it again, only better and smarter maybe, but what I have done is very adequate, only lacking a bit on cosmetic yachtie style, but I am going to trim it out in stainless and recessed latches close to the engine room style.

I will use the area for additional engine/gen-set parts and oil storage area, access would not be needed but maybe once or twice a year...

Kind regards, and Happy Thanksgiving from Down Under near the GBR..
SV SERENITY....
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Old 22-11-2018, 03:52   #60
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
Addendum to the previous Post: Notes and pictures for you to decide if you can do it from the front by dismantling the shroud.. Hey give it a try..



MY BEST ADVICE, since it is doubtful those in Order are going to get a deck hatch in the Saba 50 from F.P., then take your time and decide later if you need it or not...

Mind you, I am putting pictures up that would make the job easier, but there was no one to do that for me so I opted to pioneer with the deck hatch... Try and manage without it, try getting to the anode, try accessing the heat exchanger to dismount it, try and adjust the belt tension on the alternator. If you can manage, congratulations. Starter and solenoid, forget that, no way...



If you cannot manage, I will post my construction notes on the deck hatch access no worries. I just have to get it organized. If you are young, extremely mechanical, smaller in stature, flexible, used to working in reverse by touch and feel running blind... Then maybe you can do it from the front like F.P. are trying to say. Me? I fit none of that, so it was a deck access hatch...



I wish I knew how to put the notes with the pictures, one at a time.. Hmmm First picture is of my half gunked up heat exchanger, at 416 hours now 11-22-2018. It is not extremely necessary to do right now, but I need to take it off and cook out the minerals by say 500 hours. Or at least before next season up in the Islands of the GBR...



Second and third pictures are to give you an idea of the access you would need to do it from the front. I think it is possible, but difficult, you need to access the shroud bolts top and bottom and see if you can remove the back shroud (identical to the front one) and the aft shroud and top shroud and maybe you can get to the bolts...



Fourth Picture is of the access from the front in the engine room with the inspection panel off (front shroud)... You can see it would be very difficult to get over the top to remove the back shroud, and Fifth picture shows you the room aft of the Cummins Onan rearward shroud. The only hope would be a contortionist move to work blind with the benefit of these pictures. You would need to remove the fuel filter and go in that way, but it would be difficult at the very best.... I could not do it..



The last picture is of the access hatch access that I have cut in, and it is all there for you, piece of cake. No for those of you in the Order stage, I am sorry but F.P. are not going to be much help IMO. What they need to do is alter their deck mould to suit a matching hatch. Try and see if you can do the access to the heat exchanger and anode, and the belt tension on the alternator, running blind and contortion fitting into it from the front. If not I will post my construction notes, when I get it organized, and you can improve on what I did. I would do it again, only better and smarter maybe, but what I have done is very adequate, only lacking a bit on cosmetic yachtie style, but I am going to trim it out in stainless and recessed latches close to the engine room style.



I will use the area for additional engine/gen-set parts and oil storage area, access would not be needed but maybe once or twice a year...



Kind regards, and Happy Thanksgiving from Down Under near the GBR..

SV SERENITY....


I managed to squeeze over the top of the genset on our Helia, removed the aft shroud and was able to replace the zinc with blind application of a socket wrench. Canít speak to the other tasks.
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