Belize 43: Glue for Keel to Hull Attachment

[AussieWayne]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Aussie! if you can complety drain and dry the voids without removing the keels you are fine, but any traped water between foam, naked fiberglass or laminated for such a long time can weak and rot the area in a future.

If i am in your shoes, drop keels !! my 2 cents that the internal void is full of water, looking at the pictures.

Thanks Neilpride , yes that is my dilemma and I guess the ultimate answer if all else fails. Might try the Jedi suggestion and drill some small holes to drain the residue.
Kind regards
Wayne

[AussieWayne]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Just haul, drill some holes and see where water comes out. Two or three little 1/4" holes in the keels will show if they are waterlogged or not and closing these is under a minute of work. Sometimes testing it makes more sense than speculating about it.

cheers,
Nick.

Thanks Nick a sensible suggestion that is worth trying prior to any keel removal. If the water just keeps draining out from the holes for many days I will then know I have a reasonable chance of an internal rot problem and then weigh up the choice of dropping the keels then.
Kind regards
Wayne

[AussieWayne]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

Hi Wayne,

not answering difficult questions is a common trait amongst many companies and individuals.
My comment regarding the osmosis was to speculate that sealing concealed underwater areas was not a priority as they appear to have allowed inadequate sealing in the exposed areas.
Whilst the Lavezzi was made using a different layup technique I would expect that the same quality standards would be applied to all models.

As far as break away keels go, aircraft manufactures apply the same principle to landing gears and engines.
The philosophy is that it is better to have the component break off cleanly without rupturing the hull or wing. As these areas are used for fuel tanks it is a fire hazard to have them ruptured. Likewise you don't want water ingress into your hull.

Thanks Dragon Lady I take your points and yes I do not want to have to drop the keels on speculation as costly and maybe not required. But I am trying to gather as much information before making that decision. That is where forums like this are invaluable and the comments and advice of experienced cruisers helps fast track the learning curve.
I have resent my email query to FP so I will advise here if/when I actually get a reply.
Kind regards
Wayne

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by AussieWayne

It was actually the original photos that you very kindly posted showing the keels sitting seperated on the hard that got me thinking about this. I had seen them previously and they seem to show that the keel is not a fully encased fibreglass part. It seems to show that at the top of the keel it is open and is formed only by the foam which is moulded to the keel box cavity. Is that not so or am I somehow reading these photos wrong??

If I am correct in my reading of the photos then my original concerns are probably valid. If your statement ''The keel is a separate sealed unit'' means the top of the keel is a sealed fibreglass top then I am indeed concerned about something that is a non issue. But the photos do not seam to show that with the white foam sticking up proud of the keel??

I appreciate your input so thanks for your communications.
I do like your opening comment about not believing everything you think!!
Kindest regards
Wayne

The keels are sealed completely in fiberglass.

[Cotemar]

AussieWayne,

Yes, the Keels are sealed completely on all sides, top and bottom with fiberglass.

They are meant to break away and float on there own. The one inch hole on the stern bottom of the keel is for towing it back to dry dock to have it repaired and refitted to the boat.

[AussieWayne]

Cotemar and DotDun thank you for your comforting advice.
As this is the case then I would only lift out , allow to drain through breaches in the landing seam, dry out then re- seal with Sikaflex 292, allow to cure, antifoul over repairs and then go cruising.
Sounds like a plan to me!
Thanks to everyone for their input but I sure would like to hear back from
chris smith's buddy boating friend http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post978029

about his encounter with the reef if he ever reads this.

Kind regards to all
Wayne

[Dragon Lady]

Hi Wayne,

I received a reply from FP saying they have been "out of the office" and will answer my questions shortly, I hope you get your response soon too!
But I'm not holding my breath.

[AussieWayne]

Thank you Dragon Lady for the advice. I will also continue to wait but we will see.
Hope you get your problems sorted as they should be.
Kind regards
Wayne

[thomasmoller]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

Good luck Wayne, I'm still waiting for an answer on what to do about my hull blisters.
All they will say is "it's not covered by warranty".

Personally I would be amazed if they bothered to seal the keels before they installed them.
2002 was the start of the osmosis epidemic and sealing the tops of the keels was unlikely to be a consideration.
They are very cagey about admitting any shortfalls in their manufacturing process even on older boats so I think we both will have a long wait for a reply.

dear dragon lady, what do you know about the occurrence of the osmosis issue on belize 43? which buildingyears? I am about to buy one.
regards
thomas

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by thomasmoller

dear dragon lady, what do you know about the occurrence of the osmosis issue on belize 43? which buildingyears? I am about to buy one.
regards
thomas

I own Belize hull 91, I've had no blisters on the hull, but some on the starboard rudder. It was an easy fix!

[AussieWayne]

I have just bought hull no 76? a 2002 build and the survey came back clear, I am advised there has never been a problem with osmosis on this particular boat.
I think the osmosis problem was prevalent in the Lavezzi model? Dig through the posts and you will uncover some other references to osmosis.
Good luck with your purchase, let us know which boat and where, when you are done.
Kind regards
Wayne

[neilpride]

Belizes, Mahes , Oranas.... 2010 Orana here in the boatyard , full of blisters.... sad...

[Dragon Lady]

Yeah, I've done a lot of reading about the "osmosis issue".
I don't claim to be an expert, but from what I have read the issue is actually hydrolysis caused by water entering the laminate and breaking down the polyester resin.
The issue is allegedly caused by poor workmanship not the manufacturing process.
From what people in the Caribbean whom have a had a lot of experience with French Cats told me FPs quality has been going down hill at steady rate for the last ten years.
They also told me my boat was a lot better than the new boats and I was "lucky".
Buying a certain model is not going to be safer than another it is down to luck and year of production.
Not all post 2002 boats have problems and I know several Lavezzi owners whom have no blistering at all.
FP say they have fixed the problem yet new boats continue to blister.
Their warranty policy is simple below the waterline for 5 years or change of ownership then they dump you and don't want to know about it.
So they will nurse your boat through that period taking as long as possible to do the repairs (my boat took 2 years) and then wipe their hands at the first opportunity.
If you are going to buy an FP make sure you sell it before the 5 year warranty expires or buy and old one that has been in the water for a few years with no problems.
There are many people do not want to talk about this issue because they are worried it will damage their resale value or FP will not cover their warranty.
I've had plenty of PMs from other FP owners acknowledging what I am saying.

[Dragon Lady]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Belizes, Mahes , Oranas.... 2010 Orana here in the boatyard , full of blisters.... sad...

I was told that Oranas are the worst ever for blistering.

[Lucky]

Hi all,
Not quite sure if this is of interest any more, but I replaced one of the keels in my previous cat, an Athena 38. The Athena has the same keel design as all FP's. The removal was a monumental job as the entire cavity of the keel box was completely filled with glue.
I received a new keel from FP and a total of, as I can remember, 20 tubes of Sikaflex. The instruction was to completely fill the sides of the cavity and then use a jack to insert the keel. This was as mentioned earlier in the tread fully glassed and gelcoat finished, the substance of the keel is a polyurethane. Benefit with this is that it creates a great "lift" to the hulls as opposed to a mono where the keel is pulling the boat towards the crabs.

I also have seen small sepage of water when I lifted my Belize but did nothing, I believe the boat should be out of the water for at least 6 months to dry out completely before sealing the sepage holes. No point in locking in water if you ask me. In any case i cannot see a very small amount of water in the cavity will cause any damage to the fibreglass either in the keelbox or the keel.

Happy lead free sailin
Lucky