General Info: Fountaine Pajot Catamarans

[solarbri]

Hey Herbster,
I'm 6'7", so while dreaming of all things Cats, the first thing I research is headroom.
For FP check out this link;
Fountaine Pajot - Headroom data
It doesn't have the info on the Orana (which I understand has lots of headroom) or the New Lipari, but what can you do??

[Palarran]

I still think the best value out there is the Bahia. Can't beat the price with any of their or others cats.

[neilpride]

Hi everybody, i am a profesional delivery skyper, and the multiowners are totally confused, i made 6 catas deliverys from france atlantic side to caribbean , last one this year in january , a brand new lagoon 380 premium.
My point is that almost all the catamarans are pure junk!!! yes junk.
I dont talking about capsize or be in heavy weather, is just the metod of construction , cheap, dangerous, and so far.
There is 4 o 5 companys making good catas , example catana , dean , etc....
Lets take the lagoon im delivery this year, no backing plates for nothing, wen i say for nothing , is nothing, cleats with fenderwashers and screws under the deck , all the bulkheads very bad glassed to the hull, rudders with no bearing suport in the top, tons of 3m5200 or sykaflex to glue deck components, keels with foam inside, dangerous flybridge in the last lagoon 440 , low quality in mast rigging and booms, very low bridge clearance , etc,,,
Ans this is just a short list ,.
And in response to how hard is flip over a cat , i tell you man , after 3 days in byscay bay with gale force winds and a dangerous entrance in la coruña spain , i tell you is not so hard to capsize.
My recomendation for any multiowner going offshore , is to carry some kind of device to stop the cata, seaanchor, drogue, etc...
Because the danger come with the speed.
And remember ,, jeje, always close the cabin doors , is a tructural member, if you forget open , maybe never close again.

[Palarran]

Neilpride, interesting post. I didn't realize that almost all catamarans are pure junk. If there are a maximum of 5 companies making good cats, and catana and dean are two, who are the others? One other thing I wonder about is why you would cross an ocean six times in a boat you consider pure junk? Doesn't seem to safe to me.

That is helpful advice for cat owners who plan to sail offshore to bring a sea anchor and/or drogue. And I didn't realize that cabin doors where structural components required to be kept closed to prevent damage to the boat. Good advice.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

keels with foam inside

Where you expecting lead?

[neilpride]

Sorry if i hurt the feelings of some one, im delivery boats for the past of 15 years , is my 2 job, thats why im traveling in any kind of craft where the payment is good, i charge for a delivery from europe to caribbean about 7000 to 8000 euros , and this is good reason to cross in a catamaran.
And in response to where is the others good catamarans around ??
I tell you that almost the 70 or 80 percent of the catas around are made for the charter bussines,others are made for a more personal use, i made a crossing in a old catana with dagerboards , and i inspect the boat before the crossing , and there is a huge diference in construction.
You see the bridge clearance in the LEOPARDS??? and you notice the huge gardens saloon doors in the lagoon and others????
This is very nice in the tropics , but when things going serious you dont want to be in a catamaran!!!
Cabin doors are structural because this boat are prone to flexing , flexing a lot!!! just imagine a wave lifting one hull and the other fall down , you notice the gap in the bulkheads where the door fit?? you know why this big gap?
Any one in this post experience very rough weather in a decent catamaran?? i want to know diferent experiences .
Is just my opinion , but if i have th money to buy a catamaran , i run away from , Lagoons, Fountain pajots, Leopards, Mantas etc...
And also is very interesting to see the weight in some catamarans , why are the weight very important?? because in a catamaran is all, a overload and heavy cata loose a important safety factor, thats why made the decks and hulls cored, and keels in some ones with foam inside, save weight or sail slow , and why to have slow cata??
Is funy to have a engine problem and climb with your harnes to open the hacht and wacht for the next wave racing toward the stern !!
Now , im sorry if some one dont like my post , is just a opinion, i respect every one , i have a friend with a lagoon 440 flybridge with hibrid propulsion and is very hapy, and i know that after 3 hours running in electric mode the genset start feeding the systems.
This guy is in french polynesia right now and thinking in change for diesel propulsion pluss some structural repairs.
Best regards .

[neilpride]

Im a grounding , yes , i expecting lead, or some kind of hard material, what happen if you hard damaged the keel in a remote location ,saturated foam in the keel and a very expensive repair.

[Intentional Drifter]

I think Neil raises a number of excellent points for someone considering a cat (or any boat, for that matter). Construction quality is big topic that can look overwhelming to a potential buyer. The fact is that much of what goes into construction quality is invisible to the casual viewer. You're not at all likely to see hull delamination from just walking around the boat. But, there are a number of things that, if you look for them, you can see. Things like:

-- backing plates. Are they really, honest-to-goodness plates, or are they washers? Can you even see them? Lots of times, they are hidden behind various panels, carpet, etc. Stuff may be going on with them and you'll never know it until failure.
-- Hoses & Clamps. Are the hoses better quality, or the cheap stuff? Are they double clamped below the waterline? Are the clamps 316, or the cheap stuff?
-- Bulkheads. First, are there any watertight compartments, at all? There should be, both at the bow and the keels (if keeled). Are the bulkheads solidly glassed/tabbed? (I once got on a brand new boat, sent by the factory specially for the Miami boat show. The starboard forward bulkhead wasn't fully glassed in -- loose roving flapping around, no resin to be seen. Didn't exactly inspire confidence in the factory. A French, high production cat.)
-- Tankage. First, where are they? You want them to be as close to the center of the weight as possible, and as low as possible. If they're stuck out fore or aft, all that weight will contribute to hobby-horsing. If they're in the center and low, they'll contribute to stability. What are the tanks made of? Aluminum? Beware of anything copper anywhere around them. Stainless? How do those welds look? What quality stainless? Plastic? What kind? How thick? How are the connections done? If there's a problem, is the tank size/shape/location such that you could actually remove it without ripping out half the boat to do so? Fiberglass integrated into the structure? Probably the best way to do it, but expensive to repair if there's a problem. (on the other hand, probably the least likely to have a problem, if properly done in the first place).
-- Engine placement/access. There's pro's and con's to all of them. Far aft with access from the transom? Probably the quietest and least smelly, but lots of weight back there. If you're working on them under way, that access hatch will very likely be open and you better hope you don't have big following seas. Under the aft berths? Still lots of weight aft, but better. Ease of access to components varies, but you'll have to crawl around a lot and tear up your bed every time you need to even check something. Mid-ships? The best for weight distribution, but they take up room in the hulls. Easy access, though. I think this issue warrants a lot of thought by the potential owner. You will need to get to the engines, at some point, when underway. You will have a clogged filter, a busted hose, a shredded impellor --something, and it will happen at a very inconvenient time! Will you be able to quickly, easily, and safely get to it?
-- Salon front windows; yes, there are lots of advantages to those vertical windows/louvers and one, really major disadvantage -- they will catch water and if you're in a situation where water is coming over the bows and deck, then you're already in at least moderate weather and the force of that water may very well be measured in ft/tons. I've personally seen the results in a Leopard 46 and it put four people in the hospital and pretty much totaled the boat. If you're seriously considering one with that design, be real sure about how they're made, the support structure and mountings.

This is only a very partial list, there are many others; e.g., placement of running rigging, anchor/ground tackle placement and operation, width/form of side decks and cockpit combings, etc., etc.

Some of these items are not related to the design of the boat, but the execution of that design. Those things can -- sometimes -- be fixed by the owner. Others are forever tied in with the design and there's nothing you can do but live with it.

ID

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Im a grounding , yes , i expecting lead, or some kind of hard material, what happen if you hard damaged the keel in a remote location ,saturated foam in the keel and a very expensive repair.

The design of the production cat's keel is that it is separate from the boat and replaceable as a unit. If this is a concern, what would happen to a mono's full keel in a hard grounding? The boat's likely lost.

I'm still struggling with the concept that you've sailed across the Atlantic 6 times on boats you feel are complete junk. I have seen cleats on boat that use only washers for a backing plate and agree that it probably isn't as strong as a single piece of stainless but my guess is that if enough pressure is applied
to pull out the washers, the whole fiberglass section is going anyway.

You certainly do get what you pay for so comparing a St. Francis to a Fountaine Pajot is really apples and oranges. I don't know of any cat that would use lead for a keel, but I think the St. Francis and Lagoon's are solid fiberglass.

[Intentional Drifter]

There are several important differences in the keel design between St. F's and Lagoons. Lagoon uses an "open" design part of the entire hull layup. In other words, if you're in the hull, you can look straight down into the keel, all the way to the bottom. There are no crash compartments or anything else in the way. So, a hole in the leading edge or bottom of the keel will compromise integrity and let water into the hull.

St. Francis uses the front half of the keel as a watertight water tank, integral to the hull. It then is also a watertight crash compartment. If you do a hard grounding enough to open up the keel, you will lose a water tank, but you likely won't compromise hull integrity and sea water is much less likely to enter the boat.

My understanding is that most Fountaine Pajots use a breakaway keel, such that a hard grounding will lose the keel, but not compromise hull integrity. Sounds pretty good to me.

ID

[neilpride]

Yes is true the FP have a keel configuration in case off failure separate from the hull, nice.
A monohull depend of the keel configuration, a fin keel with bolts ,a encapsulated keel with lead inside almos bulletproof, etc...
And for the backing plates isue , well not all the catas are made the same but i see main winches in a couple of FP and in a lagoon with just tiny fender whasers underneath!! in the main winch!!!!!!
Just to say , if you are going to buy mass production catamaran ,, pay atention to construction details , really, goo inside with mirror and a flashlight and find the weak points before adventure offshore.

[Talbot]

Large washers under a main winch are not a great idea - if that deck area is pure fibreglass.

My catalac had a large reinforcing piece of wood glassed into the pad during construction and I was quite happy to use large washers.

[yeloya]

Hi Neilpride,

Crossing the Atlantic in a "pure junk" for the sake of money, for me, is a jog. I am not here to advocate any company and you certanly have some good points.
I am running a service and charter business and I take every opportunity for sailing any boat available in the marina (short distances)
I have seen for my part, many FP's and I own one. I haven't heard anyone falling part in the middle of the Ocean for some 1.000 maybe more cat they built. I have seen up to 50 knts in cat and only 30 knts in mono. I may be subjective but it was much more easier and calmer on the cat than on the mono. (I won't mention the name but one with a good reputation) To say the least, the mono was much more scary and uncomfortable. I cannot imagine being on this one at 50 knots..
I am also seeing lot of bots damaged. Never seen any FP's winch coming apart or major structural damages. But I see a lot of mono with keels trapped somewhere. (yes, the long and lead ones) You know what happens at minimum impact ? The bottom of the boat is cracking all the way down. If they are lucky to skid away from the obstacle, they survive with a bill of 5.000-10.000 €. If not, they sink.. Vs. I have seen a couple of catamaran (yes, they were old models of FP's) with one hull fully flooded and yet they could come back to marina still afloat..

Good luck with yr deliveries..

Yeloya

[neilpride]

Hi yeloya, with all the respect you wrong in some points , you know that charter companys buy or lease cheap products to make money with low looses, in my last trip i have the oportunity to talk with the Sales Manager of Lagoon catamarans groupe Benetau, and in the end of the conversation se admit some quality isues, also i have the chance to see a brand new 440 come off from the female mold under construction and see the marriage betwen the deck and hull, and i dont see any FP break in pieces in the midle of nowehere, is true, but i wacht some charters companys in martinique fixing very badly torn off keels from the last grounding charter party, in some cases the keel is gone , just some pieces off fiberglass and foam left.
And my boat is csy 44 tall rig with a 6 ft 6 tons lead encapsulated in 2 inchs off solid fiberglass, if you put my boat in a hungry reef with waves pounding the boat im sure se survive, if you put some low quality catamaran in the same scenario , the cata is kaput!! what material is stronger ?? lead or foam?? just take out if you have the oportunity the depth transducer or a truhull close to the keel to see the laminate thick.
And the motion mono versus cata , you totally right , a cata is a super stable plataform,but i cant sleep in my off wachts in the saloon due the waves pounding the bridge , amazing noise!! in my second delivery i made the trip from france to canary islands with ear plugs!!
In this days , the builders try to down the cost and make profit, and you pay for this cost down, if you want a robust catamaran to sail around the world , talk with your bank or robe a bank, because in the 300.000 to 500.000 range euros no quality found .
Best regards.

[yeloya]

Neilpride,

The subject of how the maintenance is being handled in charter companies, have been discussed several times. I've learnt that in many places, particularly in BVI's, the maintenance is non existant.. Any boat of any kind that has no periodical maintenance is at risk, whether is a mono or cat, a FP or a Gunboat. For charter companies, buying cheap products as you suggested can turn out to be very expensive, unless you want to send out people with unsafe vessels. What we are looking for are reliable, easy to maintain boats, with a maximum possible comfort to customers. (aside having reasonable head clearance, nice galleys, etc., max. comfort means also not to have to come back he marina a day later with a broken part or not properly working engine, etc..) If you don't do that, you shortly run out of Business. Any customer who pays a 5 K for a week won't come back again..
It's true that the cats in general are noisy under bridge, particulary if they are short on bridge deck clearance. (FP is not among them..) Most of the cats have a sacrificial keels. You may leave the buttom part of yr keel, but you won't damage anything and still be afloat. The reparation is much cheaper and easier. (By the way never seen yet any cat in this situation)

Said al this, I agree that "charter oriented cats" may not be the most suitable ones for offshore sailing. They are not particularly made for this. The Catana 52 that we have here for servicing might be more suitable than Orana 44 for that purpose. Vicea versa, the Catana is a nightmare for charter purpose. It is extremely complicated, difficult to service and handle. If you are offshore, you definately need an experienced people both in handling the boat as well as fixing things on the way. (which is much easier on FP's)


Cheers

Yeloya