Helia 44: Escape Hatch Failure

[smj]

Do escape hatches have to be made with a transparent product or is this just a selling point? Wouldn't it be easier to build a stronger cored/fiberglass hatch?

[Sawbonz]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Sawbonz,



Can you expand on that? Was it Leopard that approved eliminating escape hatches, or was it your insurance, or (unlikely) was it allowed by the CE certification? If it was Leopard that approved it, do you still have CE approval on your boat?



Re insurance, my understanding is that for a bluewater cruiser, i.e. venturing more than 200nm offshore, the boat needs to meet Cat 1 regulations in order to get Pantaenius insurance. And I believe Cat 1 calls for an escape hatch in each hull.



Can anyone shed any light on this issue and the ramifications for !. marine insurance and, 2. CE cerification?

Leopard went to the certification people and got their approval, so the boat is still certified. Current builds have folding stairs still over where the hatch was but the plans are to make them stationary.

I heard this from the engineer during a factory tour just last month though I’ve seen the boats without the hatch already over the summer. I honestly don’t recall, whether it was CE, ABYC, or both, but Leopard isn’t going to take any chances, so probably both.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by smj

Do escape hatches have to be made with a transparent product or is this just a selling point? Wouldn't it be easier to build a stronger cored/fiberglass hatch?

IMHO, they are primarily put in all makes for sales and marketing purposes in response to capsize phobia. Ditto for the transparency...oh look a room with a view!

Should be eliminated or be a proper solid hatch.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Sawbonz

Leopard went to the certification people and got their approval, so the boat is still certified. Current builds have folding stairs still over where the hatch was but the plans are to make them stationary.

I heard this from the engineer during a factory tour just last month though I’ve seen the boats without the hatch already over the summer. I honestly don’t recall, whether it was CE, ABYC, or both, but Leopard isn’t going to take any chances, so probably both.

Sawbonz,

Thanks for that feedback, it is extremely interesting. A hat tip to you if you have been the instigator of a change for the better in the marine industry!

I would much rather not have escape hatches in our new cat, as I've been suspect on them for quite some time. If forced to use them for insurance, I would have used the safety glass and hammer option over opening hatches anyday.

I agree with you that Leopard most probably did their homework on the certification issue as it has huge implications for selling within the EU.

I'll ask our local Pantaenius office about it next week.

[Sawbonz]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Sawbonz,



Thanks for that feedback, it is extremely interesting. A hat tip to you if you have been the instigator of a change for the better in the marine industry!



I would much rather not have escape hatches in our new cat, as I've been suspect on them for quite some time. If forced to use them for insurance, I would have used the safety glass and hammer option over opening hatches anyday.



I agree with you that Leopard most probably did their homework on the certification issue as it has huge implications for selling within the EU.



I'll ask our local Pantaenius office about it next week.

I can claim no credit at all. I merely ordered a boat and found out AFTER that this change was happening, but I’m glad to be able to share something!

[Bean Counter]

If you haven't read it already, it makes interesting reading

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/25-new...verturned-boat

[AllenRbrts]

Here is a photo of the hatch repair. My long term fix will be similar with an aluminum bar instead of wood. We glued blocks of plastic with bolts and the bolts are attached to the plastic. Our backup plan was to drill through the plexiglass and bolt that to the wood. Fortunately the glue worked so we didn't have to drill.

[JayH]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

If you haven't read it already, it makes interesting reading

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/25-new...verturned-boat

Anna was the first Atlantic cat to have a non-opening glass hatch because the opening ones always leak. Yet when she capsized, a highly motivated man was unable to break the glass with the little hammer OR a fire extinguisher.

[BigBeakie]

This is one of those things that are totally counterintuitive, but here is one way to break toughened glass in an emergency, when the hammer doesn't work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWAiMa4OuGE

By the way, the hammer needs to be a sharpened point, like an ice axe, to have any chance of breaking 10mm toughened glass for escape hatches.

After a further weight and bouyancy analysis to predict interior water level after capsize, our cat will have escape hatch in the saloon floor by the forward facing navigation station. I'm thinking it can be covered by a teak grate, so it can be left open at anchor and catch the breeze under the bridgedeck. Also cool to be able to look down and spot the crays under the boat in the lagoons.

[Jim Cate]

Question from a monomoron: are there any reliably reported events where someone needed and successfully used one of these escape hatches?

To me, they seem to present a significant hazard to seaworthyness, so unless actually useful, perhaps they should be phased out of common designs.

Jim

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

This is one of those things that are totally counterintuitive, but here is one way to break toughened glass in an emergency, when the hammer doesn't work.

By the way, the hammer needs to be a sharpened point, like an ice axe, to have any chance of breaking 10mm toughened glass for escape hatches.

After a further weight and bouyancy analysis to predict interior water level after capsize, our cat will have escape hatch in the saloon floor by the forward facing navigation station. I'm thinking it can be covered by a teak grate, so it can be left open at anchor and catch the breeze under the bridgedeck. Also cool to be able to look down and spot the crays under the boat in the lagoons.

Amazing video, if it's real, but I think if your cat capsizes, there won't be a spark plug handy.

[BigBeakie]

Jim,

Yes, some multihullers agree. The "benefit to risk equation" needs a rethink. But up till now, I believe CE called for escape hatches in both hulls placed as close to waterline as practicable. And Cat 1 racing regs call for the same thing, I believe (could be wrong or out of date about that). So I was very pleased to hear Leopard has been able to persuade the powers that be at CE headquarters to drop the waterline hatches.

It never made alot of sense to me in the day and age of 406 Epirbs why you wouldn't just take shelter in the upturned hull for the relatively short time it would take to get assistance if it went over and you were inside at the time. Then when rescue arrived, swim out through the bow sail locker hatch. It would have to open from the inside and you need watertight hatch between aft bulkhead of bow locker and living area forward.

And if you were in the cockpit and went into the water, then you need a way to get into the boat for shelter, hopefully via the "escape" hatch that someone inside the boat has been kind enough to open for you. With heavy cats and lots of weight in the stern, it will float ( at least hopefully float ) very stern down. With lighter more performance orientated designs, they will have their bridgedecks mostly out of the water. So the escape hatch can be located elsewhere that does not pose as much a risk of flooding the boat and serves to get fresh air into the boat while waiting for rescue.

As Chris White pointed out in that article about the Anna capsize, the hatch is really more about getting in AND out of the boat without risking swimming underwater to try and find the cockpit door.

All good food for thought. It's sort of like you monohullers figuring out how to stem the flow from a sizeable hole at or below the waterline to avoid rapid sinking. Much better to think it through sipping a cool drink in the evening, than trying to figure it out during the event.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Amazing video, if it's real, but I think if your cat capsizes, there won't be a spark plug handy.

I've heard of it before but never seen it.

And like most crisis management issues, it's better to have thought through bad stuff beforehand and prepared, rather than rummaging around in a drawer looking for your spare spark plugs and hammer to break them. Especially since you are now walking on the roof with stuff floating everywhere.

Anyway, chances are if you did locate your spark plug and hammer to break it, with all the excitement, you'd probably hit your thumb

[Bean Counter]

The use of escape hatches - see commentary from the skipper

https://www.sailfeed.com/2016/11/atl...-of-leopard-2/

[Sawbonz]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

The use of escape hatches - see commentary from the skipper

https://www.sailfeed.com/2016/11/atl...-of-leopard-2/

I read some, but didn't want to spend a lot of time looking for details, primarily because I am not sure which ones you are trying to point out. What was your purpose/thought in posting this link?