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Old 14-03-2008, 15:41   #211
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Scott,
Do you know where the problem was with the leaking windows on that other Mahe? Was it the windows themselves or some other fixture leaking with the water just running to the window?
thanks,
Lori
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Old 14-03-2008, 17:21   #212
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Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
That's interesting I just crossed the Atlantic on my Mahe and I would say my only real complaint was the noise. She creaked and squeaked alot more than I expected. Have you actually had success re-tuning the rig on other Mahe's to eliminate some of this noise?
I would imagine that tightening the rig would lessen the creaking and squeaking, and help tighten the forestay.The rig loads depend on wind strength, direction and sea state. However hard you tighten the rig, the rigging will still stretch under real life sailing loads, so blaming the noise on rig tension is a diversionary tactic.
With wave action the mast will always move a bit, but this is not what is causing the noises inside the boat!
A well built cat should not have this level of noise/movement of components in and on the boat. The multiple leak reports are probably based on this flexing of the whole construction. A short to medium term fix will be to use a more flexible compound to seal around the windows and portholes, but this will not solve the inherent problem in the long term.

I ould suggest that all you Mahe owners start an owners group, if there isn't one already and work together to get this problem sorted.
I read somewhere that FP also had to redo the decks on 4 Lavezzis due to some stuctural issues, maybe the FP importer pguillemin would care to comment?

Alan
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Old 15-03-2008, 07:08   #213
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Lori
As I understand it, the windows were removed and reset, this seems to have fixed the leak. Philippe, can you comment more on this?
Nordic cat, tightening the rigging does help with the noise, but I think most of it is coming from the fact that FP places an inner "shell", if you will, which is not part of the structural hull of the boat. The stairs are part of that lining and they do creak.
I will say that ALL boats I've been on creak, I just sailed a Moorings 46 from the BVI's to Florida and it made quite a bit of noise as well.
However you make an interesting observation of what could be the cause of the windows to eventually leak, but I will add that the boat that I know of with the leaks was delivered from the factory with them.

Scott
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:21   #214
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answer

Alan

Difference in weight is mostly due to the vast difference in volume between the Tobago and the Mahe.I think that infusion and injection have helped us saved weight and keep a more consistent control over the weight of boats during the production life.
Flex: Rig overtightening will make the boat flex ( lateral flex) and will make the boat creaks.
Proper tensionning of the rig and mast will keep your forestay tight and give you a better angle.
Movement of interior furniture is different.Parts are glued together and designed to move.This do not have any influence on the hulls or rigging.
Speed: Cruising boat territory>We are not talking wing mast here or sqare top mainsail,but real on the water speed and that what I have been experiencing on our owners' boats( which all have Air conditionning ,gen set and xtra gear) Still good enough .
These boats are production boats built with a budget in mind and are a compromise between weight saving and money saving....
We also built large fast catamarans at Multiplast and the weight saving and speed become very expensive .
athwartship track for jib or staysail is a great idea .We are also offering the Gale sail from ATN which goes around your furled genoa.....keep it simple
It is also true that we are the dealer importer and are biased but I love the Mahe and had only good experience with the boats so far





Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
The Mahe is specified as having a lightship weight of 5 tons (on the FP site) The Tobago weighs 4.2 (verified weight of my boat) . So where is the weight saving???? In all the nice 12 mm thick wooden doors and lockers, and other internal fittings? It doesn´t seem to be in getting a nice stiff hull.

You originally claimed that some of the problems were from over tensioning the rig, now the flex is due to design - that is a point we can agree on. My statement earlier was exactly this point, too flexy and squeeky.

Keeping a tight forestay is I agree imperative (so why design flex into the hulls?), but the sheeting angle of the genoa is limited by the rig design and the positioning of the genoa tracks, due to the large triangle on the mast.
These are the reasons for me mounting a track forward of the mast so I can use a self tacking jib for windward work in stronger winds, I don't sail faster but can improve my apparent wind to below around 32 degrees relative, whereas the genoa points around 5 degrees lower. (This is on the Tobago 35) Tacking angle on the GPS goes down to 90-95 degrees with the jib.

I have had the Tobago at 18 knots (flat water and 30-32 knots of wind with full main and genoa, empty boat) - but that in no way means that the boat is a fast boat. Even lightship she struggles to get above 55% of windspeed. In my book, that is not a fast boat. It has many other qualities, buts it's not fast.

The Mahe has wider hulls than the Tobago, so the waterline beam/length ratio is probably 1:10 roughly - that is not performance territory by any definition. Maybe you know what the waterline beam of a hull is and can enlighten us?

The slothful performance of the boat is the reason why I will be rerigging my Tobago with a rotating wingmast, with an extra 3 feet of mast height and a square top mainsail. I have for a number of years used a large Code 0 in kevlar flown off a bowsprit, as well as a gennaker.

These "extra" sails enable me to keep up with some of the faster monohulls of the same length,in winds below 15 knots, (i.e. up to about 60-65% of windspeed) above that i can pass them as they get to their hull speeds.

Fill them up with 250 litres of water, 120 litres of fuel, a small RIB with a decent outboard, 4 people and provisions for week, and you easily lose 10% of the speed.

I'm not knocking the FP boats (i've had one for 8 years and keeping it), they are good for what they are designed for, but calling them fast is a gross exageration of the facts.

I know your job is to sell boats, but in any business, living up to the (realistic) expectations of your customers is what grows the business, and keeps you profitable. (you might not need to work as hard on the next sale) But that is the long term approach.

Regards

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:26   #215
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We had a couple of boats with leak on the front window.It was an easy fix.Obviously a problem with the process at the factory .
Did not happen on the last boats delivered
On the last Mahe delivered across the Atlantic we lost a batten for the Lazy bag and broke the lock for the sliding door....pretty good after 5000.00 miles
We had problems also with some Furuno electronic then found out that the problems lies in a missing voltage regulator
In any case the factory stand behind the customers


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott730 View Post
Lori
As I understand it, the windows were removed and reset, this seems to have fixed the leak. Philippe, can you comment more on this?
Nordic cat, tightening the rigging does help with the noise, but I think most of it is coming from the fact that FP places an inner "shell", if you will, which is not part of the structural hull of the boat. The stairs are part of that lining and they do creak.
I will say that ALL boats I've been on creak, I just sailed a Moorings 46 from the BVI's to Florida and it made quite a bit of noise as well.
However you make an interesting observation of what could be the cause of the windows to eventually leak, but I will add that the boat that I know of with the leaks was delivered from the factory with them.

Scott
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:42   #216
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Alan

I am commenting indeed
I do not know of the 4 decks redone on Lavezzi but I will check.We sold boat number 191 in October so I do not think that there is any STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS in the building process
For the rest I have answered some of the questions
Leaks :It happened on 2 of our Mahe so far and it was due to a badly followed process at the factory ( wating too long for instalation )
Easy fix

Creaking: overtensionning of the rig will pull the hull or chainplates up and will create chafe and grinding ( overloaded boat is easy to check as doors do not close easily )Also I do not think that SS cables streched .

Also you should sail a Mahe before commenting on the problems in a so doctoral manner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I would imagine that tightening the rig would lessen the creaking and squeaking, and help tighten the forestay.The rig loads depend on wind strength, direction and sea state. However hard you tighten the rig, the rigging will still stretch under real life sailing loads, so blaming the noise on rig tension is a diversionary tactic.
With wave action the mast will always move a bit, but this is not what is causing the noises inside the boat!
A well built cat should not have this level of noise/movement of components in and on the boat. The multiple leak reports are probably based on this flexing of the whole construction. A short to medium term fix will be to use a more flexible compound to seal around the windows and portholes, but this will not solve the inherent problem in the long term.

I ould suggest that all you Mahe owners start an owners group, if there isn't one already and work together to get this problem sorted.
I read somewhere that FP also had to redo the decks on 4 Lavezzis due to some stuctural issues, maybe the FP importer pguillemin would care to comment?

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 15:12   #217
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Alan

I am commenting indeed
I do not know of the 4 decks redone on Lavezzi but I will check.We sold boat number 191 in October so I do not think that there is any STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS in the building process
For the rest I have answered some of the questions
Leaks :It happened on 2 of our Mahe so far and it was due to a badly followed process at the factory ( wating too long for instalation )
Easy fix

Creaking: overtensionning of the rig will pull the hull or chainplates up and will create chafe and grinding ( overloaded boat is easy to check as doors do not close easily )Also I do not think that SS cables streched .

Also you should sail a Mahe before commenting on the problems in a so doctoral manner
A good aquaintance delivered one from the factory in France to the Baltic early last year. He said he had difficulty falling asleep due to all the creaking.

Anyway, I suggest you take a look at the March issue of Yachting World, page 76 and 77, commenting on The European Boat of the year, Multihull category where the Mahe was entered.

I quote: "Dubious interior build quality, quite noisy under way"
"Unexciting", "Good value for money" but also "Ultimately the value for money argument fades"

Comments like these are very seldom seen in the magazines who rely on the boatyards for alot of their income from advertising. The comments by some of the owners in this thread verify that there seems to be a flexing and a noise issue.

I agree that overtightening the rig will make the boat flex, all boats do to some extent. But I don't see how a now "stiffened boat" (as i maybe incorrectly expect the resistance to flexing to increase, the more you tighten the rig) should now make even more noise? Does the boat get more flexible as you tighten the rigging?

You don't think that Stainless stell stretches?????? I don't want to get personal, but this apparent level of knowledge of basic boating, puts the whole discussion we are having in a new light.

The Mahe was designed as an entry level boat, to entice new customers to multihulls, and expand the market for FP, I think that is great! But, the feedback also from professional boat testers from around 10 european countries, as well as a number of owners/sailors, seems to point in the direction of some problems with the design of the Mahe. Probably trying to give too much boat for too little money.
The fact that the Mahe was presented a few months prior to the company going public, so they could bask in the 45 or so orders, just based on drawings, can only have helped to boost the share price of the IPO.But it is impressive marketing!

The European Multihull Boat of the year 2008 was the Dragonfly 35 Ultimate. Check it out at Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | welcome

regards

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 16:01   #218
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And Sail mag. in the US has it as boat of the year. All I can say is I sleep fine on the boat and have been sailing the boat for almost a year.
Nordic Cat, if you dislike the boat so much maybe you should start a thread for the boat you really like. I don't mind people stating problems with the boat, and how to fix them, that is what all the owners want to know. But you have no experience with this boat yet come off sounding like an expert on the Mahe, I couldn't agree more that you need to sail the boat before trashing it. The more you say the less credibility you have.
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Old 19-03-2008, 16:03   #219
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Right now everything you report is hearsay...A good aquaintance ...or read in magazines,feedback from professionnals....Need to go on the water and try the boat instead of trying to organised unions out of boat owners,,,
Please read comments from owners of Mahe on the site ( real ones; not the ugly importer who doesnot know anthing about boats) Some of them went thru the Atlantic,some other to South Africa,some to the Carribbeans and back from the US and they seems to be happy with the performance and the whole package.We have a shipyard which stand behind their products and we try to work with our buyers to keep them happy and make sure that they will buy other boats from us.
Comments on boat of the year is true but Mahe and Orana were nominated out of numerous other boats.....and as much as I love the Dragonfly .I do not think that she will be a match for most of our buyers.
Also your are taking phrases out of context.Print the whole article

SS rig : low stretch...do not go personnal indeed as you do not know background .and look at the mast and rigging of Mahe please before commenting again

I think that you have too much time for boat bashing right now !Could it be the cabin fever and the nordic climate.
As of the introduction of boat and IPO??? May be but the line of FP boats is being redesigned every few years anyway.( and Mahe was introduced 15 months prior to market introduction)
And we sold a lot of boats on drawings because the price was right.So too much boat for too little money? not my place to answer but I know that we gave opportunity to go sailing on a new boat to alot of owners .
best regards
Philippe



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
A good aquaintance delivered one from the factory in France to the Baltic early last year. He said he had difficulty falling asleep due to all the creaking.

Anyway, I suggest you take a look at the March issue of Yachting World, page 76 and 77, commenting on The European Boat of the year, Multihull category where the Mahe was entered.

I quote: "Dubious interior build quality, quite noisy under way"
"Unexciting", "Good value for money" but also "Ultimately the value for money argument fades"

Comments like these are very seldom seen in the magazines who rely on the boatyards for alot of their income from advertising. The comments by some of the owners in this thread verify that there seems to be a flexing and a noise issue.

I agree that overtightening the rig will make the boat flex, all boats do to some extent. But I don't see how a now "stiffened boat" (as i maybe incorrectly expect the resistance to flexing to increase, the more you tighten the rig) should now make even more noise? Does the boat get more flexible as you tighten the rigging?

You don't think that Stainless stell stretches?????? I don't want to get personal, but this apparent level of knowledge of basic boating, puts the whole discussion we are having in a new light.

The Mahe was designed as an entry level boat, to entice new customers to multihulls, and expand the market for FP, I think that is great! But, the feedback also from professional boat testers from around 10 european countries, as well as a number of owners/sailors, seems to point in the direction of some problems with the design of the Mahe. Probably trying to give too much boat for too little money.
The fact that the Mahe was presented a few months prior to the company going public, so they could bask in the 45 or so orders, just based on drawings, can only have helped to boost the share price of the IPO.But it is impressive marketing!

The European Multihull Boat of the year 2008 was the Dragonfly 35 Ultimate. Check it out at Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | welcome

regards

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 16:35   #220
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Our boat (hull 29) certainly did creak a lot but the Australian importer was able to reduce the creaking to a very large extent. Perhaps if your boat is still creaking you could contact them for the solution.
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Old 19-03-2008, 17:31   #221
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I think there are several comments from actual owners on this site mentioning the noise issue, and leaking windows, as well as the french owner with a claimed 50 waranty issues not solved after a year.

I am not into Mahe bashing, I think that it's great that a big name manufacturer like FP, who also has a great reputation, decided to adress this corner of the market again after an absence of 6-7 years after the last Tobago was built.
I agree that its great to give alot of people (often new to multihulls) a very reasonably priced entry level cruising boat.
If there are problems and issues, then they need to get sorted if FP wants to maintain their good reputation.
The new way they have chosen, of building an inner and outer shell is probably where the cause of some of these problems arise, as the inner shell doesn't do as much to stiffen the boat like on the earlier designs. I know this method saves alot of time in building, thus the lower sales price.

What I do react to is salesmen making exagerated claims about how light and fast their boats are. I have just tried to put these claims into perspective. I still haven't recieved a satsifactory answer as to how the Mahe ends up 800 kgs heavier than the Tobago for a 1 ft longer boat, despite the original claim that it was lighter.

The issues mentioned don't make the Mahe a bad boat, just keep things factual. Chosing a boat will always be a compromise, we just have to sometimes remind orselvesthat selling or buying a boat is always a "horse for courses" situation, you don't sell a workhorse as a thoroughbred racer at half the price.

Philippe,maybe the miserable Nordic weather has finally got to me, put me in a deep mental depression, that has led me to question some of your remarks.

I need to rush down and buy som Prozac, a few bottles of Vodka or schnapps, add a pinch of viagra (to ensure I don't inadvertently roll out of my bunk in my log cabin) and wait for the sun to reappear. In the mean time I must avoid being critical....

Fair winds and regards

Alan
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Old 19-03-2008, 18:02   #222
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I have a two year old Athena which squeaks a lot. This squeaking appears to be caused by the bathroom shell rubbing against the upper inner saloon shell of the roof along the forward roof line above the stairs where the wall of the bath room meets the roof in both hulls. (If that makes any sense) This is very annoying but I have become used to it. It happens as a result of flexing of the bridge deck and where this sound is occurring, a gap has gradually opened to about 3mm wide stretching the white rubber sealant. You can feel this movement by just putting your finger on it. I have considered trying to find the main friction point and grinding it out, but for now I am happy to live with the noise. As some one already said, all sail boats creek any way. One of my forward galley windows has a slight leak also caused by this same flexing action around the window frame. I would imaging this mass production construction technique causes the same squeaking and leaking on all FP vessels. I noticed hair line cracks in the gel coat around both hulls in the transom immediately after the boat was first put in the water indicating there was flexing occurring between the hulls. Flexing is perfectly normal on any hull, and in my case, this happens whether the sail is up or not and I guess the trick for FP is to try and avoid pressure points in their designs which produce squeaks. At least we don't have to contend with metal fatigue issues. All boats and designs have their share of flaws and it's a pity after making 222 Athena's FP didn't manage to resolve all the squeaking. A FP owners group would be interesting for owners and new buyers to compile all these issues, but I think you would just be highlighting what FP already knows already. Like Alan, I love my boat and overall I am very happy with it. It's a boat, and if I was lucky enough to fix the seeking noises in the saloon then the squeaking from the steering rod would start to annoy me
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Old 19-03-2008, 18:21   #223
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
maybe the miserable Nordic weather has finally got to me, put me in a deep mental depression, that has led me to question some of your remarks.

I need to rush down and buy som Prozac, a few bottles of Vodka or schnapps, add a pinch of viagra (to ensure I don't inadvertently roll out of my bunk in my log cabin) and wait for the sun to reappear. In the mean time I must avoid being critical....

Fair winds and regards

Alan



Now that's funny!!!
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Old 20-03-2008, 07:02   #224
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Alan

Mahe is heavier because it is a bigger boat ( way bigger)
Please look at the space and volume ( you say it yourself hull are wider and platform is bigger)
Good luck with the mix of Prozac and Vodka....Might even help
We do not need that in Florida as we have sun and we go sailing instead of dreaming about it
French owner.I am surprised as Fp has teated everybody fair in the USA .So may be there is another side to the story
There is no inner or outer shell.Boat are infused for the hull and injected for the deck ...so no liner or countermold.
Hulls are built then furniture is dropped in place then deck close the whole
The stairways are part of the interior furniture and they might be too tight on some of the earlier boats ( so rubbing occured)
ANd last I am not a salesman ...I import the boats and like them.And spend 30 years of my life sailing ( mostly on large cats ) SO it is a passion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I think there are several comments from actual owners on this site mentioning the noise issue, and leaking windows, as well as the french owner with a claimed 50 waranty issues not solved after a year.

I am not into Mahe bashing, I think that it's great that a big name manufacturer like FP, who also has a great reputation, decided to adress this corner of the market again after an absence of 6-7 years after the last Tobago was built.
I agree that its great to give alot of people (often new to multihulls) a very reasonably priced entry level cruising boat.
If there are problems and issues, then they need to get sorted if FP wants to maintain their good reputation.
The new way they have chosen, of building an inner and outer shell is probably where the cause of some of these problems arise, as the inner shell doesn't do as much to stiffen the boat like on the earlier designs. I know this method saves alot of time in building, thus the lower sales price.

What I do react to is salesmen making exagerated claims about how light and fast their boats are. I have just tried to put these claims into perspective. I still haven't recieved a satsifactory answer as to how the Mahe ends up 800 kgs heavier than the Tobago for a 1 ft longer boat, despite the original claim that it was lighter.

The issues mentioned don't make the Mahe a bad boat, just keep things factual. Chosing a boat will always be a compromise, we just have to sometimes remind orselvesthat selling or buying a boat is always a "horse for courses" situation, you don't sell a workhorse as a thoroughbred racer at half the price.

Philippe,maybe the miserable Nordic weather has finally got to me, put me in a deep mental depression, that has led me to question some of your remarks.

I need to rush down and buy som Prozac, a few bottles of Vodka or schnapps, add a pinch of viagra (to ensure I don't inadvertently roll out of my bunk in my log cabin) and wait for the sun to reappear. In the mean time I must avoid being critical....

Fair winds and regards

Alan
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Old 20-03-2008, 18:28   #225
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Philippe,
When I was referring to "inner shell" I was referring to the interior furniture mould. In my case, on my Athena the interior furniture mould is physically not connected to the deck mould along the roof above the stairs. There is an expansion joint there, I guess to allow for the movement during bridge deck flexing. It is in this joint that creaking occurs when the two pieces slide and push together. I assume a similar thing is causing the same creaking on the Mahe. In my case, my boat is the 222nd Athena built and it is only two years old and has creaked since it was built. This problem is not new or only an issue of the earlier boats, it's a current production issue that FP has failed to rectify. It's small annoying things like this that give FP great boats a bad name, but I love em !!
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