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Old 09-10-2012, 01:46   #61
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

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Old 09-10-2012, 03:24   #62
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Here is a good place to start when picking which FP to buy.
Here are the FP Base Prices from the Annapolis 2012 boat show
i wonder what else they got wrong have a look at the loads lipari less than Helia when it is atually more than double 2,200 KG vs 4,800 KG
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:01   #63
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

Couple of things from an armchair observer (for the time being).

I think the Helia is a really good looking boat and looks extremely comfortable. I think the 450 is absolutely stunning and is also extremely comfy.

The 450's saloon is larger and therefore the mast is more forward than the Helia - I have sailed neither so I can't comment but I surmise that in certain conditions the Helia could be slightly (read negligibly) better in terms of hobby horsing although the 450 has 2 feet extra in length which may negate this argument.

Two things where I think the Helia falls short and please correct me if you think i'm a loon. The davits on the Helia look too low and gives the impression that the tender could get swamped in rough seas. The anchor position is the other issue I have, if anchoring in sludge how do you clean the chain before it gets into the locker.

I am a great advocate of the flybridge on the 450 and I think the Helia's answer to this is even better as it allows the boom to be closer to the deck. I have read that the Helia sails better but I would like some real world comparisons as the figures quoted were 5 kn in 7.5 wind, I would hazard a guess and say the Helia was empty (no cruising gear, tanks very low etc) so a like for like comparison would be valuable.

I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that the Helia can be ordered with anywhere from 2 to 4 heads, to me 2 heads on an owners version is more than enough and I know Lagoon will not entertain the idea of 2 heads in a 450 owners version. I can understand why but they should have thought a little more about this during the conception stage.

Anyway these are just my thoughts and both vessels are in my opinion the perfect long voyage cruising boats. oh and btw i'm 6'.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:22   #64
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

The Helia 44 is ICW (Intracoastal Waterway) friendly at 63' 7" ft mast height
The Lagoon 450 has to go offshore the whole way on the ICW at 75' 8" ft

Helia 44 Captain can talk to anyone in saloon or cockpit without and intercom from the helm.

Helia 44 draws less water, is lighter and faster than a Lagoon 450

Helia 44 lines are sexier, softer and not as square as the Lagoon 450
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Old 09-10-2012, 13:45   #65
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

We have been discussing on various tastes, views and which attributes of a catamaran is the most important for each of us. If we look at from a broader perspective, Lagoon has launched 440 with a flybridge, then consolidated this concept (more space/comfort at the cost of sailing abilities) even further with 450, while FP has resisted to this trend to not to deny his heritage and traditional positioning (space and comfort is OK but sailing abilities come first..)
Unfortunately for FP, the sales numbers of 450 against Orana was allarmingly higher and as a result Helia which is a compromise beetween Orana and 450 was launched. Everyone can argue on this strategic move but two things are certain: the early reactions to Helia are very positive (I've spent some time around the boat in Cannes and Istanbul boat show) and so are the orders so far. Secondly, build quality is way better than outgoing Orana. Better than 450 ? Only time and sales numbers will tell us as they are priced almost the same..

Cheers

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Old 09-10-2012, 14:22   #66
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

Essentially the Lagoon loses around 70 sq feet of sail area from the foot of the main, the rest of the sail plan is untouched.

In our 440 with only a genoa and main we sail and tack in 8 knots true to achieve 4.3 SOG and 2.3 through the tacks, that's not bad for a heavy high boomed Cat. Remembering this will improve with a better cruising sail wardrobe.

Hobby-horsing is very minimal as Lagoon carried the lines aft in a fairly full manner..

The 450 has issues with rain entering the cockpit from the companionway cutout in the Dodger roof.

450's are slower than 440's even though they have a squarehead main giving better area.

A "bridge" friendly mast is normally available.

Cheers Frank
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:52   #67
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

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Another perspective.
Any idea what 'TOSSINGS' are? LOL.

Profile of the LAGOON shows a combo of 450 and 440 as the 450 has a Square head main.
Certainly the 450 is heavier of that theres no doubt.

Vision aft is much different looking at profile.

Nice boats both of them, it would come back to availability/price and personal preferences. Cheers good info.
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Old 09-10-2012, 23:26   #68
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

Well, nice advert Gordon
talking about bad visibility on the rear....
Lipari I have to watch under the roof to see the end of my port hull docking backwards! not really comfortable, and Helia is even worst cause you are higher!
anyway never cruised a 400 or 450 so perhaps it's again even worst on the Lagoon...

I think yeloya is in the right comment, Orana wasn't a good challenger for the L450... now Helia is !
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Old 09-10-2012, 23:47   #69
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

Our Lagoon 440 has an interior helm station, we intend moving the Throttle/Gear controls along with a Thruster switch to a position in the cockpit aft on port-side at the end of the sink bench there.

Backing into a Quay or Slip pen would then be totally simple and able to do singlehanded. The interior helm for us is not desirable, cold weather the windows fog so you would be relying on instruments alone, i'd much rather be up top...

Cheers
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:23   #70
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

Love the open chat and the manner you are willing to help with the comparison between boats Lagoon4us, all done in good spirit. We are looking forward to rafting up with you in the Med next year and sharing a beer or two!

Take care Gordon.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:38   #71
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

You know it's strange as cruisers well know their is no aggro amongst sailors sharing anchorages, any bay we drop our pick in may have motor boats, mono's cats or tri's in people who wish to socialise simply do so.

I only see aggression on forums largely from wannebees with blind opinions. Quite honestly what boat we choose is based on budget, availability, suitability and aesthetic to the eye of the beholder.

Choosing a partner has similarities although i'd be reluctant to push that point. Nothing stirs my blood like the sight of a Herreschoff , the sheer and clipper bow with a ketch rig WOW!!! But it would not be practical for us to have one now...

Viva la Difference we can all learn and enjoy, we can take idea's and opinions use or discard it's all good stuff.

No boat i've ever seen, built, sailed or owned has it all...
Elle McPherson on the other hand............................

Cheers look forward to the beers
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:41   #72
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

I'll join you for a beer too...
thanks for sharing with us , lagoon for us
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:09   #73
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

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I only see aggression on forums largely from wannebees with blind opinions. Quite honestly what boat we choose is based on budget, availability, suitability and aesthetic to the eye of the beholder.

Choosing a partner has similarities although i'd be reluctant to push that point. Nothing stirs my blood like the sight of a Herreschoff , the sheer and clipper bow with a ketch rig WOW!!! But it would not be practical for us to have one now...
The Herreschoff surely is a beauty. I feel very much the same way with Morris 42's, however, you're right, on a day to day basis and as a liveabord, I wouldn't even think of buying one (instead they will stay as a "girl next door" fantasy at the marina!).

FP's are always lighter than Lagoons (well, what isn't actually?) however, you also need to consider their payload capacity. When it comes to payload, most lagoons are just donkeys, load anything you like, it will not bother it (since it's already slow to begin with!). Joking aside, I too wonder about the real world comparison of both.

As for looks, couldn't agree more, FP's always look better (with the exception of the custom cats that Lagoon built for the movie, Water World). As a matter of fact, Bahia 46 was one of the first cats that I've fallen in love with, which still looks revolutionary today after many many years...

My guess for the "agression" in the forums a bit different, either a newbie or experienced, we're all a bit cranky when we're on dry land, don't you agree???
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:54   #74
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Re: Buying a Helia 44

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we're all a bit cranky when we're on dry land, don't you agree???
Instead of sailing, I'm at work.... GRRRRRR !!!

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Old 10-10-2012, 13:34   #75
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FP has always built lighter boats than Lagoon, that's their philosophy. Sailing cats. I have sailed many Lagoons and my preference is definitely for lighter but that's just me.
Re the headroom on the Helia, I'm 6'3" and had room to spare. I'm also not sure I agree about the opinions on the finish. We spent 2 days in Cannes going over the lagoon, leopard and FP and found the FP more solid and better finished from the flexing of the decks, the installation of the deck gear and rigging, the silicone finish, floorboard fit to things like curtain rails and door handles.

I liked the 450 also and preferred it to the leopard by a mile. The bridge deck is something I didn't like but I understand why others do. The 450 felt much bigger Han the Helia. So big that I felt the 421 was more comparable.
Anyway, everyone has their preferences and we are very happy with the Helia, we loved the layout of the helm and separate sail handling space in particular.
Can't wait until delivery...!
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