Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-01-2015, 11:23   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: On the go. Not in Prague.
Posts: 4,016
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Wrong...
I really don't get what makes you so furious every time anything related to any tablet device and not being Linux chroot on Android appears...
If you think that the *user* manual (= it's reader really is unable to build anything, no matter how foolproof we think the text is) is too Windows centric, just fix it, we really can't do it as we simply don't have access to any device in this configuration.

Many thanks for your effort in making OpenCPN usable on Android, it is really appreciated.

Pavel
__________________

__________________
nohal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 12:31   #32
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by nohal View Post
Wrong...
I really don't get what makes you so furious every time anything related to any tablet device and not being Linux chroot on Android appears...
If you think that the *user* manual (= it's reader really is unable to build anything, no matter how foolproof we think the text is) is too Windows centric, just fix it, we really can't do it as we simply don't have access to any device in this configuration.

Many thanks for your effort in making OpenCPN usable on Android, it is really appreciated.

Pavel
It has nothing to do with tablet devices other than android and OpenCPN running in a chroot environment. It's the cockamamy commentaries like those below that I believe deserve a response. And they're always made by posters who haven't a clue. Who have probably never tried running OpenCPN on an ansroid device, let alone read my directions, Whether I am considered a developer or not means nothing to me. All I know the instructions are filed in the Developer's Manual.

Thanks for your expression of appreciation.

Originally posted by:RythemDoctor:

Quote:
With the recent proliferation of Windows 8 tablets, there is now an economical and easily accessible tablet platform for OpenCPN that does not require rooting, virtualization, or other cumbersome hacks.
Originally posted by: rgleason

Quote:
"VNC Stands for Virtual Network Control I believe.
https://www.realvnc.com/products/vnc/
TeamViewer - Free Remote Control, Remote Access & Online Meetings

What are you doing? Using the cloud? Running another big computer on board?
Yes, this is a perfectly reasonable configuration for some boats with a 640 amp house battery, and big engine or a big PV array. This is an alternative to consider, but it is not the same as running Opencpn under android or alongside or whatever on that device. I believe in truth in packaging here, for all those reading.

Happy New Year Wrong. I still hope you can share your experience in more detail because even though the program is being run "virtually" over a network by some other bigger computer, the experience would very similar to actually running on the Tablet I believe.

Your suggestions to make O tablet operation better might even help you...ever considered that it might help others too?

PS Like your boat, doesn't look like it has 640 amp batteries! What is your experience and use and power requirements? Also tell us a little about your boat please".
__________________

__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 15:34   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 571
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
...It's the cockamamy commentaries like those below that I believe deserve a response. And they're always made by posters who haven't a clue. Who have probably never tried running OpenCPN on an ansroid device, let alone read my directions, Whether I am considered a developer or not means nothing to me...
I can assure you that I read your directions. I've rooted Android devices before, and I've installed alternate firmware in them before, so I recognize what you are suggesting. Having done that, I know that it is far simpler to just install an compiled .exe on an out-of-the-box tablet that is running the OS that it was shipped with. I stand by what I said - nothing that I wrote is untrue.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this. You will not get people to follow your advice by insulting them.

I look forward to a time when OpenCPN can run on an android device by installing a native .apk. Please continue your efforts.
__________________
RhythmDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 16:06   #34
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,363
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Wrong,
Please accept my apologies if I made your day unpleasant. Thank you for the good llink to Sailing Anarchy OpenCPN on android devices! - Page 3 - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

This thread which I believe I have followed
OpenCpn Install on Android Tablets Easier Now.

And your excellent work on the wiki
Building on Motorola Xoom | Official OpenCPN Homepage

I was amazed you could do it, and still am. I am sorry that changes in Opencpn made it more difficult.. I have no idea how Opencpn can support so many platforms begin with. The more I learn about the process the more remarkable it seems, so you must understand that if it is going to happen you'll need to join forces with others with like minds.

I'd really like to run it on Android too, however I do not want to screw up the one android device that is suitable by mistake, besides it is my wife's. There are some cheaper ones available and sometime I might try it. -Yes you are absolutely right I have never done linux next to android. I have a hard enough time with Virtualbox running Linux Ubuntu hosted on my Win7 and every upgrade of Virtualbox or Linux creates trouble for me! Also Don't have enough time to do all I'd like to do...so.

...so I follow your efforts and others. I am going to need a bigger screen and charts than my dinky Garmin Colorado which we have been using on board for the last 5 years and right now I am thinking its a Win8 tablet for a couple of years anyway. ...never had a chartplotter, and don't run the pc when sailing, just use it for planning right now... it's too valuable to me, sliding around the cockpit, water, etc. and I am not going to risk it.

Eventually I'd like to have nmea data, ais, and new radar connected to it (in that order). I am watching and listening to other's experience to learn.

You haven't told us much about your use with VNC and your boat (what is it?) looks like it might be a comparable for us.

So I am glad to have gotten your attention, you managed to spark mine with your first post.
__________________
rgleason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 20:11   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 571
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

I have modified the Tablet wiki to remove the wording that Wrong considered offensive. I apologize to Wrong and any others whom I may have offended with my objectionable wording. I should have made the changes as soon as they were brought to my attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
RDr,
...What do you think of the Lenovo Miix 2 11, or is it still the Miix 2 8?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
...I am going to need a bigger screen and charts than my dinky Garmin Colorado which we have been using on board for the last 5 years and right now I am thinking its a Win8 tablet for a couple of years anyway. ...never had a chartplotter, and don't run the pc when sailing, just use it for planning right now... it's too valuable to me, sliding around the cockpit, water, etc. and I am not going to risk it.

Eventually I'd like to have nmea data, ais, and new radar connected to it (in that order). I am watching and listening to other's experience to learn...
Rick - Your question about Miix2 the other day could prove costly. I started looking around at newer Win8 tablets that have come out the last few months, and there are some real good looking ones, especially if you like the hybrid approach with a netbook-like keyboard with detachable tablet screen. The Asus T100 and T200 have been remarkably successful because they hit a great price point, but I've always been underwhelmed by their displays. The Acer Aspire Switch 10" and 11" models look real promising. I haven't seen them in the stores, but the brightness and color gamut measurements I've seen look real impressive. I may end up getting one of them. None of these has an internal GPS, though, so that's a consideration. (I have Bluetooth GPS and AIS on my boat, so not an issue for me.) Mix2 8" model is still a very sleek, lightweight device with great battery life, and the internal GPS is available, though with some quirks. I'll try to update my Win8 tablet thread with some more recent information.

-- "the other Rick"
__________________
RhythmDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 11:01   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: WNA
Boat: Dufour 35
Posts: 3,247
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

RhythmDoctor

Thank you very much for your contribution. Very much appreciated.

I had hoped for a short summary of how a rooted Android works.
Something that could raise the interest in this alternative. Any of all you guys using this option that are up to the challenge?

Thomas
__________________
cagney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 12:07   #37
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally posted by rgleason:

You haven't told us much about your use with VNC...
I had a detailed answer but the Cruisersforum system signed me off, copy function doesn't work in that state so my routine of copying my work for safety's sake before posting failed.

The short answer is when the linux distribution is installed on the android device using Linux Deploy, a 'vnc server' is included. The vnc viewer performs the role of what is commonly referred to as a client. In our case the client is bVNC Free, downloaded from Google Play. When you tap the 'Start' button in the Linux Deploy GUI, the linux partitions are 'mounted' and and the vnc server is started by the linux system.

All that remains is tapping on the bVNC Free icon on the android desktop for it to launch. Provided you have configured bVNC Free per my instructions here: Building on Motorola Xoom | Official OpenCPN Homepage when the 'Connect' button is tapped, the client bVNC Free connects with the running server and the linux desktop appears.

Installing and running OpenCPN is discussed in detail in the instructions, link above.

Finally, more relevant to the subject of this thread. While modifying OpenCPN's interface for the purpose of adapting to the smaller size of tablets is o.k., it is by no means necessary in order to use OpenCPN with bVNC Free and other vnc clients that include 'pinch & zoom'. Just zoom in on a menu item, or perhaps a waypoint you want to move. Long press the waypoint with your finger and drag to its new location. Zoom back out... Easy.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 12:26   #38
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by cagney View Post
RhythmDoctor

Thank you very much for your contribution. Very much appreciated.

I had hoped for a short summary of how a rooted Android works.
Something that could raise the interest in this alternative. Any of all you guys using this option that are up to the challenge?

Thomas
Just follow the links to my threads and instructions provided in rgleason's last post. Lots of discussion, problem solving and assistance to be found. Depending on the thread, more or less colorful exchanges and language too.

But the short answer is android and linux share a critical feature. The linux kernel. So, both android and linux can run concurrently on the same device. One important difference though is that linux must operate in a 'chroot' environment.

"A chroot on Unix operating systems is an operation that changes the apparent root directory for the current running process and its children. A program that is run in such a modified environment cannot name (and therefore normally not access) files outside the designated directory tree. The term "chroot" may refer to the chroot(2) system call or the chroot(8) wrapper program. The modified environment is called a "chroot jail".

However, on a rooted device as long as android filesystems like sdcard are defined in Linux Deploy, they can can be accessed from the linux desktop, normal file operations performed such as copy, rename, delete and more. Additionally, android file managers can be used to perform these tasks.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 14:23   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 571
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
...Finally, more relevant to the subject of this thread. While modifying OpenCPN's interface for the purpose of adapting to the smaller size of tablets is o.k., it is by no means necessary in order to use OpenCPN with bVNC Free and other vnc clients that include 'pinch & zoom'. Just zoom in on a menu item, or perhaps a waypoint you want to move. Long press the waypoint with your finger and drag to its new location. Zoom back out... Easy.
FYI, the same is true for Windows. Microsoft provides a Magnifier utility that zooms the view (and there are a bunch of other freeware options as well).. It's useful if you have two objects very close to each other. Some people with fat fingers may find it useful for tapping on toolbar icons. I use this utility occasionally, so I keep it pinned to the taskbar for quick access.

Dave wants to provide the opportunity for 9mm toolbar buttons by activating "Scaled Graphics Interface." Frankly, 9mm takes up too much real estate on my small tablet, and I have skinny fingers (and an always-available capacitive stylus) so I don't need it. I leave Scaled Graphics turned off and use the magnifier on the rare occasions I need to see something tiny - like the active route info (tiny green text on a black background).

I think I'll add the magnifier tool to my suggested Windows8 tips on the wiki. Thanks for bringing this up.

This morning I added a link to your Xoom page that you keep referring people to.
__________________
RhythmDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 18:33   #40
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,363
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Wrong thank you so much for explaining what a chroot environment is and what it does, because from the outside it sounds pretty intimidating and like it might brick your device.

I hope this gets into the Wiki.

I am wondering if there is any advantage to purchasing a plane-Jane Asus 8" Tablet for $89-$129 and trying to install Linux on it as chroot or even only Linux over the top (would that work or would there be problems getting to the GPS etc?) This device would then become a way to become familiar with the process and might even provide me with next year's navigation improvements?
__________________
rgleason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 10:36   #41
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by RhythmDoctor View Post
FYI, the same is true for Windows. Microsoft provides a Magnifier utility that zooms the view (and there are a bunch of other freeware options as well).. It's useful if you have two objects very close to each other. Some people with fat fingers may find it useful for tapping on toolbar icons. I use this utility occasionally, so I keep it pinned to the taskbar for quick access.

Dave wants to provide the opportunity for 9mm toolbar buttons by activating "Scaled Graphics Interface." Frankly, 9mm takes up too much real estate on my small tablet, and I have skinny fingers (and an always-available capacitive stylus) so I don't need it. I leave Scaled Graphics turned off and use the magnifier on the rare occasions I need to see something tiny - like the active route info (tiny green text on a black background).

I think I'll add the magnifier tool to my suggested Windows8 tips on the wiki. Thanks for bringing this up.

This morning I added a link to your Xoom page that you keep referring people to.
I wholeheartedly agree. There is simply too little 'real estate' to lose any amount of a chart view to enlarged menu icons. This was obvious when an android user created a file way back in August or September for the purpose. It was also instantly obvious when I used the tablet setting in OpenCPN. Since I don't own a tablet with a higher resolution that renders much of what you see in OpenCPN as 'tiny', I can't say whether or not enlarging the icons on this type tablet is an advantage.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 10:57   #42
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Wrong thank you so much for explaining what a chroot environment is and what it does, because from the outside it sounds pretty intimidating and like it might brick your device.

I hope this gets into the Wiki.

I am wondering if there is any advantage to purchasing a plane-Jane Asus 8" Tablet for $89-$129 and trying to install Linux on it as chroot or even only Linux over the top (would that work or would there be problems getting to the GPS etc?) This device would then become a way to become familiar with the process and might even provide me with next year's navigation improvements?
No. For that much $ it's very easy to find 10" android tablets on Craigslist. I bought a Xoom 'backup' for $80 on Craigslist. Like new condition. You are unlikely to find a tablet to which you can successfully install linux as a replacement for android. There are a very small number of android models with dual boot capability, but not for the technically shy types of users. Ubuntu Touch, now installed on a limited number of new tablets is an embarrassment for most experienced linux users. It won't even run linux versions of programs like OpenCPN...

Your best choice is to pick up a used 10" tablet, follow my instructions and you should be good to go. GPS usage will not be a problem. I suspect there are a lot more features in OpenCPN, like AIS, that will work running OpenCPN in a chroot environment using android applications that function similarly to WIFI GPS. But, alas, I do not own an AIS unit to test...
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 11:39   #43
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. There is simply too little 'real estate' to lose any amount of a chart view to enlarged menu icons. This was obvious when an android user created a file way back in August or September for the purpose. It was also instantly obvious when I used the tablet setting in OpenCPN. Since I don't own a tablet with a higher resolution that renders much of what you see in OpenCPN as 'tiny', I can't say whether or not enlarging the icons on this type tablet is an advantage.
I forgot to mention this. In linux and maybe Windows there is an option to orient menus at the top, bottom and sides of a screen. In addition, they can be set to 'auto hide'. The problem I'd anticipate in advance though, is when creating a route and the cursor continues scrolling along an edge this would cause a hidden menu to appear, probably complicating the completion of a route. Otherwise, when you need to access the menu touching the edge with the cursor brings it down. The lazy man's way to doing what is already possible in OpenCPN - hiding the menu.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 13:00   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 571
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
I forgot to mention this. In linux and maybe Windows there is an option to orient menus at the top, bottom and sides of a screen. In addition, they can be set to 'auto hide'. The problem I'd anticipate in advance though, is when creating a route and the cursor continues scrolling along an edge this would cause a hidden menu to appear, probably complicating the completion of a route. Otherwise, when you need to access the menu touching the edge with the cursor brings it down. The lazy man's way to doing what is already possible in OpenCPN - hiding the menu.
Not sure whether you're referring to the OS's taskbar or O's new menu bar that Mac users requested, but here are some comments about the Windows taskbar that may or may not be relevant:

I found auto-hide of the Windows taskbar to be problematic in O, for basically the same reasons you mention. O sizes its window for the full screen, but when the taskbar appears it overlaps O's window. Also, touching the edge causes the effects that you mention, though I can't remember since I decided quickly to turn off auto-hide because of these problems. We can't ask Dave to fix every little problem that comes along - some features of the OS, whether Windows or Linux, just aren't worth supporting.

Also, there is the option to place the taskbar at the top, sides, or the Windows default bottom location. Since I use the tablet in landscape mode (due to the screen's polarization direction and my preference to use polarized sunglasses), vertical space is at a premium and I keep the taskbar on the side.
__________________
RhythmDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 13:01   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 571
Re: Touch Screens and Tablets

In case anyone is interested, I posted an updated summary of some of the newly introduced Windows 8 tablets here:

Windows 8 Tablets for OpenCPN
__________________

__________________
RhythmDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
screen

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Want To Buy: Portlight screens and rubber closing gaskets DolphinBuddy Classifieds Archive 0 03-01-2012 18:33
Mexico and Sea of Cortez . . . Hatch Screens ? JimmyP Pacific & South China Sea 7 05-10-2011 21:18
Unique product designed to hold the new tablets and E-readers tsl Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 3 25-03-2011 12:51
removing seacocks and below water screens defever Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 07-11-2008 12:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.