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Old 20-03-2012, 05:10   #16
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I'm involved elsewhere in chart licensing. The general view is more quantity less cost. The iThingy market is perceived to be orders of magnitude bigger then the plotter market so chart publishers accept much lower costs. The other thing to bear in mind is the smartphone thing is in its infancy, lots of market testing prices may rise as acceptance grows ( or product differentiation may occur)
I see the high price of the (sd) cards for chart plotters as a carry over from the time frame of labour intensive (therefore expensive) creation of vector charts from paper ones.
Nowadays, mainly NTMs (and a few new charts) have to be incorporated.
Then the factors described by goboatingnow will and already do apply.
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Old 20-03-2012, 05:35   #17
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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it will not be today or tomorrow when we convince anyone to follow the US model. That solution is not that way in any normal life time

The solution will involve money or openCPN will remain a US centric one.
I'm seriously loving this discussion because we are really getting to the center of it. The question is: What do we want OpenCPN to be? Sure, I use it on the water and it just makes me happy to have access to an open source solution that I know is going somewhere. It's made by people with the right mindset and brings joy, safety and value to a lot of people.

But I also see OpenCPN as a symbol for high quality open source software in a market dominated by expensive solutions with artificially limited functionality. OCPN gets a huge amount of downloads, close to 40k since the beginning of the year, but I can imagine many European users downloading it, a) finding out they can't use it with their charts and then b) realising there is not even a way to obtain vector charts to use with OCPN.

This has already been done for BSB4 and the NV.Verlag. Going the CM93/3 or S-63 route is "just" the next step. And it has the added advantage of large coverage. I believe OCPNs role in the market should be that of the Swiss Army Knife of navigation software. The VLC of marine software. Successful because it plays everything.

If OCPN is the navigation software that works on every OS, works with every chart format, has a mass of plugins for every imaginable purpose, users won't bother with paying for limited proprietary solutions.

While I absolutely understand developers who are not willing to work under NDAs (and that IHO OEM Agreement that Pavel linked to makes even me cringe) I think the plugin achitecture gives us a chance to keep the freedom and buy the commercial charts.

Tom
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Old 20-03-2012, 06:31   #18
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

The other thing that can be a surprise is that some chart agencies are sensitive to the low cost argument and do see a public safety role in the distribution of their charts. Hence you can be surprised as to the cost effectiveness of it. ( and the reverse is also true)

Dave
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Old 21-03-2012, 00:09   #19
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
publishing) it will not be today or tomorrow when we convince anyone to follow the US model. That solution is not that way in any normal life time

The solution will involve money or openCPN will remain a US centric one.
There is quite much work in other areas to get governments to open up data. TO make europe as competitive as the US. Much driven by webbapplicaitons developers. This momentum could be moved into a EU activity. If one follows talk about open data. The demands and understanding here might be tipping the small part of making charts also follow. Databases of land roads, timetables, and all other government data that can be used to make new combines services are much much bigger in money and potential usefulness for the society that it might just be added when that change comes. I'm pretty sure it will come. It doesn't make sense that europe be the only part of the world that don't have open data, that popular webbsites works all over but not in the EU.

The effects of this will be so big and clear that even an EU politician will see the effects.
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Old 26-04-2012, 15:16   #20
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

you could also download a free program called MagicDisc wich will mount the diskimage of your mapdata
(do a google for cm93_may2009.iso for example) than built the chart directory within opencpn by pointing the maps location to your newly created virtual drive by magicdisk..et voila..Bob's your uncle!
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Old 26-04-2012, 17:26   #21
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

I have been informed by Jeppesen that they will never let their licensing be incorporated in an opensource product.
It's been up for discussion at Jeppesens offices but it was denied by all parties.
Several developers have asked Jeppesen but they won't go there...
They are afraid that there will be a major distribution of pirated ed3 charts around if they released the licensing for opensource products.
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Old 26-04-2012, 19:46   #22
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

Yes Hotrod that is quite understandable and i totally agree with you.
However, its possible to mount the iso on a virtual drive (or burn to disk) and use it with opencpn.
On board i have my little netbook with Opencpn as the chart/plotting software, hooked up with a simple gps receiver which i bought for about 35 euro. the charts i use is from cmap and it works absolutely perfect.
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Old 27-04-2012, 04:03   #23
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

Emercedes - I think the Cmap you are referring to maybe Cmap Edition 2, not 3??

Hotrod - A real shame that Jeppesen won't allow Open Source software to run CM93/3 but that move alone will stop the pirating. CM93/3 has been cracked long ago and is widely being used with another navigation software program...the name of which I'm sure you can guess.
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Old 27-04-2012, 04:36   #24
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

Its the 2009 version of cmap wi5th zones 1 to 9. very detailed.
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Old 27-04-2012, 04:43   #25
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

The only reason i got this is for the sole reason that i cannot justify the cost of the Garmin datacards..i would be cruising a fair bit in the UK, Ireland, France and occasionally Spain and the chartdata cards alone would cost about a 1000 euro.
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Old 27-04-2012, 05:14   #26
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

For UK, Ireland, parts of Europe, Med, its worth taking a look at this
The VisitMyHarbour Online Chart Directory
Raster versions of UKHO charts, presntly work with SeaClear, but shortly releasing a version of BSB4 charts which will work with Open CPN
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Old 27-04-2012, 05:26   #27
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

emircedes, C-Map charts around 2009-2010 (not sure about today) were often released in both CM93/2 and CM93/3 formats. You probably have the former, since OpenCPN can't make any sense of the latter even after they've been decrypted.

Regarding unlicensed use (I hesitate to call it "piracy" as we mariners reserve that term for a much more serious problem):
CM93/3 was cracked ages ago. All broadly useful proprietary software products get cracked in short order, period. Making it hard for developers to use the format is not going to deter unlicensed use, it's just going to limit market penetration and exposure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdd View Post
The question is: What do we want OpenCPN to be?...
But I also see OpenCPN as a symbol for high quality open source software in a market dominated by expensive solutions with artificially limited functionality....
If OCPN is the navigation software that works on every OS, works with every chart format, has a mass of plugins for every imaginable purpose, users won't bother with paying for limited proprietary solutions.
While I absolutely understand developers who are not willing to work under NDAs (and that IHO OEM Agreement that Pavel linked to makes even me cringe) I think the plugin achitecture gives us a chance to keep the freedom and buy the commercial charts.
I'm very much a supporter of free / open source (not as rabid as Stallman, but I do my best to go FOSS when possible).

But software has to be usable. At the moment, many hydrographic offices use S-63, which OpenCPN can't decrypt. Commercial chart vendors use their own proprietary formats, which OpenCPN can't decrypt or read.

Right now, I have no convenient and legal way to use OpenCPN on the water. It can't read my government's charts, and it's been a long time since I saw a licensed and up-to-date CM93/2.

I would be strongly in favour of the approach used by IrfanView: have a plugin for every file format that translates that data into OpenCPN's internal working formats. OpenCPN, whether in core or through plugins, has to be able to use all common international-standard chart formats if it is to be a serious player. Right now, we have BSB 1-4, S-52 / S-57, CM93/2 and a few old/uncommon formats. I would like to see S-63 in there, and pretty soon we'll have to consider S-100 / S-101, so that end users can put together a legal and practical system based on OpenCPN.

At the same time, those of us who are not Americans should consider writing to our hydrographic offices about using S-57 instead of S-63 (IIRC, the data format is similar, S-63 just adds an encryption wrapper). We need to make it clear to them that we are willing to pay for the legitimate and useful S-57 data, but are not interested in buying DRMed S-63 that doesn't work on all of our devices and that could leave us locked out if we have to replace hardware.
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Old 27-04-2012, 05:45   #28
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
For UK, Ireland, parts of Europe, Med, its worth taking a look at this
The VisitMyHarbour Online Chart Directory
Raster versions of UKHO charts, presntly work with SeaClear, but shortly releasing a version of BSB4 charts which will work with Open CPN
VisitMyHarbour is an excellent resource, for anyone sailing UK waters who doesn't know it.

I have not paid up for the paid services, however, and haven't seen the charts. Are they full coverage charts? Or just harbour pilotage? I think the cost is a one-time payment of 25 GBP, which is a real bargain if that gives you access to a full UKHO chart set.
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Old 27-04-2012, 11:49   #29
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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VisitMyHarbour is an excellent resource, for anyone sailing UK waters who doesn't know it.

I have not paid up for the paid services, however, and haven't seen the charts. Are they full coverage charts? Or just harbour pilotage? I think the cost is a one-time payment of 25 GBP, which is a real bargain if that gives you access to a full UKHO chart set.
Thats about correct, for 25 GBP you get access to their online charts, its a one off payment. Its a full raster scan of an Admiralty chart, but due to copyright you can only print it off in screen sized shots. I've been using this to make screen dumps of the tricky bits, like harbour approaches, Ramsey and Jack Sound and the such like. If it gets blown over the side never mind (too much).If you go to the website, they have a few trial version charts to try out

In addition, you can also download in PDF format their own version of UK pilot books/cruising guides. I've had a quick look at my area and they are pretty good.
If you have paid the fee you can have a discounted copy of their digital chart service. Thats all the charts on the website on a DVD. Its stated on the website that these DVD's are updated at least annually. At present, these charts can be used on a lap top chart plotter, at the moment, it requires a free program called Sea Clear as the plotter. They are close to finalising another set of charts in BSB4 format which can be used with Open CPN. Again, for copyright reasons, the DVD must be in the laptop to unlock the charts and get started.(they also provide a USB key if you prefer)
I cannot comment on the digital charts as I am waiting for the BSB4 format charts to be completed, then I'll purchase that one.
If you go to the website, they have a few trial version charts to try out.

There support seems good, I have sent a few emails to them, replies are prompt, useful, and courteous, which is a pleasant change from other vendors.

So far I'm pretty happy with the service. I only joined up 3 weeks ago, and already I believe I have had my monies worth from the website service.

Oh, and they have this sort of google map/digital chart overlay thingy. As I'm on a ship at the moment with a satellite link (slow) I've not really had a chance to explore this
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Old 27-04-2012, 18:08   #30
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Re: Seriously, how much would it cost to get CM93/3 into OpenCPN?

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Right now, I have no convenient and legal way to use OpenCPN on the water. It can't read my government's charts, and it's been a long time since I saw a licensed and up-to-date CM93/2.
Very similar experience here. Would love to use Open CPN more, but all I can use it for are KAP file charts I have made my self and old CM93/2.

I'm sure the developers are aware that outside the US and NZ, OpenCPN is very restricted due to its inability to access particular file formats.

Good program.....seems (as a non techie, non legal person) to be a small step to making it a great program.
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