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Old 03-12-2014, 11:15   #151
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
would rather be aware of doing that at 4 to 5 steps past "Overzoom" than continue thinking I was at a reasonable zoom level and run aground!
I am having a difficult time imagining a case where I was not aware that I was overzooming - even if I put tape over my screen where the big, outlined "overzoomed" label occurs.

I also refuse to believe you would cut things so close as to run aground using overzoom, where you would not otherwise.

I don't think anyone is backing into their slips looking at OCPN...

Mark
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:28   #152
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I am having a difficult time imagining a case where I was not aware that I was overzooming - even if I put tape over my screen where the big, outlined "overzoomed" label occurs.

I also refuse to believe you would cut things so close as to run aground using overzoom, where you would not otherwise.

I don't think anyone is backing into their slips looking at OCPN...

Mark
Mark...
Believe it or not, I have seen people navigating channels with rocks a few feet away on both sides looking at the GPS instead of around the boat.
The reason? Very simple - those people have absolutely no idea about what they actually see on the display and where the limits are. You and MarkJ turn the blurring off and will be happy. The other guys will hopefully stay afloat a bit longer. Or not.

Pavel
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:38   #153
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

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Originally Posted by nohal View Post
The other guys will hopefully stay afloat a bit longer.
So the OCPN organization is concerned more with protecting people from themselves and clamping down on the lowest denominator?

Are your anecdotal examples the ones used to determine safety features of the program? Can you tell me where this will end?

I have all sorts of examples where a stupid person can use the program incorrectly. It really is quite dangerous as it exists now. Maybe I can finally contribute to this effort, since recognizing dumb things is one of my strong suits. Perhaps you can just stop at the warning splash screen and go no further - that would save a lot of programming effort.

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Old 03-12-2014, 12:13   #154
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Mark...
So we should better use your muscle showing phrases as the measure? Turn it off, if you don't like it, that's all.

Pavel
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:24   #155
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

bdcat has heard our plea-Three Cheers For Dave!
Quote:
Anyway, I imagine we shall ultimately bring the overzoom emphasis disable control to the options screen
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Old 03-12-2014, 15:01   #156
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Hello Dave,

I realized this afternoon various tests with raster charts sector 1 US coasts. I chose to make screenshot, almost systematically, each zoom status. But that's a lot of images. No way to put it here on the forum cruisers.

So I took the time to made a web page about it.

Follow this link : Test de l'item Zoom/Details weighting.

I suppose, from your point of view, item works properly. Why not.

But I am perplexed about its use. One thing is certain, if we use it on the fly, go for it, the options, take too much time.

Anyway, after these tests, I do not understand:
- The two sentences that are on the "advanced" just below the slider
- The text of the item itself.

I have no idea what it would take to it. I will discuss this with François and the other French-speaking users.

Sorry Dave.
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Old 03-12-2014, 16:58   #157
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Gerhard...

Thanks for the report on the tide window rendering.

This can be fixed, but we need to hear about it. It is impossible for the developers to replicate all of the Beta test experiences, across all platforms and data types. If we could, we would surely not bother to Beta test

So, please, bring these types of issues to the Flyspray, and they will get fixed. Simple as that.

Thanks
Dave
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Old 03-12-2014, 17:18   #158
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacust View Post
First, that was only me. Not the authors.

Second, the ONLY reason I said that is because YOU CAN TURN IT OFF.

If you can totally turn it off, why is it such an issue for you? You won't have any blurring at all. It will be working just like every other package. I don't understand why it's such a disturbing issue when YOU CAN TURN IT OFF.

-dan
Show me the turn off button? Where is it?

Its should be off by default.

But more generally: what other features have you degraded that you have not told us about?

Finally: imagine you walk into a shop selling charting programs and the salesperson says there are two to compare, OpenCpn and Brand X. The difference is that Brand X works better and is not degraded by the programmers.
Which are you going to leave the shop with?
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Old 03-12-2014, 17:29   #159
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Finally: imagine you walk into a shop selling charting programs and the salesperson says there are two to compare, OpenCpn and Brand X. The difference is that Brand X works better and is not degraded by the programmers.
Which are you going to leave the shop with?
OCPN is free, so wouldn't be in a shop selling programs. However, imagine you go to get OCPN and you get confused by several versions of it that have forked off with full development due to strongly held beliefs on how the user should/should not be constrained in its usage.

I guess I am passionate about this now because I see OCPN on the cusp of really turning a well-established industry completely upside down and being much, much more than an open-source hobby in the future.

I started out thinking this was going nowhere beyond hobbyists, but later versions (particularly cross-platform ones) showed brilliance in thinking and implementation and changed my mind completely. This effort may do to the marine charting industry what Linux has always bragged it would do to its industry, but never delivered.

It would be a shame if the developers lost the thread on this, or took it off the rails for dogmatic reasons.

Mark
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Old 03-12-2014, 17:36   #160
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Gilletarom....

Let me try again to explain the function of this slider control.

First, a key point. The slider applies to zoom operation dynamics, not to static chart selection.

I show some test shots here:

1. base.jpg. Note the scale is 78,200. Weight slider is 0.

2. zoom_1_click_with_weight0.jpeg. Here I have zoomed in by one click on the mouse wheel. Note the new scale 39100.

I zoom back out by one click to produce "base.jpg" again.
I then set the weighting slider to (-5), and zoom in by one click again.

3. And you see zoom_1_click_with_weight_minus5.jpeg

Note the scale is the same as (2), ie 39100. But the chart shown is different. It is a smaller scale chart on (3). Note the change in zoom factor. (2) is zoom factor 0.5. (3) is zoom factor 2.0

You say, "Why would I want this?"
Answer: If your screen resolution is large, and the pixels small, you may find the image (2) to be too fine, or too detailed, to read clearly. So (3) is better for you.

On the other hand, if you have a small, low resolution monitor, you may prefer (2), since (3) may be too coarse.

The important things are:
1 The slider affects zoom-in operations most directly.
2.It was not intended that a user exercise this control very often. Maybe experiment, set it to your liking for average charts in your area, and leave it set.

In effect, we pose this question:
"On zooming in, when do we switch to a smaller scale chart if available?"

-5...delay switching to smaller scale to improve performance and visibility.
0....As OCPN always was, default
+5...Switch sooner to a smaller scale chart, if you want more detail.

That's it. I don't know how this translates to French sensibilities. But I am sure you will give it a good try.

Thanks
Dave
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Old 03-12-2014, 17:49   #161
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

I guess I am passionate about this now because....

Mark
I am passionate about it because Right Now I am anchored on a lee shore in a squall and I want to be able to use anchor watch effectivly.

Why? Because if I drag I am dead.

So instead of OpenCpn that I normally would use I am using a handheld GPS from Garmin. Same Charts, no degraded features.


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Old 03-12-2014, 19:33   #162
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

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Originally Posted by dacust View Post
At least one government agency is considering requiring ECDIS systems to disable overzoom ......

............. Oh. In case I forgot to mention: YOU CAN TURN IT OFF !!!!!
Well if a government agency is considering it, then it must be the sensible thing to do ..... yeah right, they always make decisions in our best interests.

I appreciate that there is an INI setting to turn off blurring, but why bury it? Many people would be daunted at finding and editing this file. How many people will download the software without knowing about this solution or discussion and just give up and choose an alternative software? If Navionics, Garmin and others allow it with their huge user base, why not OpenCPN?

Another case for overzoom capabilities .....

We are currently negotiating our way down the sandbank filled channels between Brisbane and the Gold Coast. Yesterday, travelling just after low tide, often with a whisker of depth below the keels at some places, CM93 with many times overzoom helped us find a path. CM93 is uncannily accurate for most of the sandbanks here and the channel markers are spot on. That doesn't mean we confidently steam ahead because the chart says it's OK, but we now have our track recorded and can use it for a future trip.

I was recently at Lady Musgrave Island .... for those that don't know it, there is a fairly narrow lagoon entrance and a few dangerous bommies around once inside. We entered with perfect visibility and negotiated our way around the bommies to the anchorage. However, when we left, there was quite a bit of chop and grey skies, so underwater visibility was poor. With several steps of overzoom we were able to follow our entry track and return the exact same way.

So, why not make it an easy option to choose blurring or not. How about ........

Have a user option to turn it on or off. If set to off, display a warning and explanation message at every startup. But allow an INI setting to turn this off as well.
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Old 03-12-2014, 20:17   #163
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I am passionate about it because Right Now I am anchored on a lee shore in a squall and I want to be able to use anchor watch effectivly.

Why? Because if I drag I am dead.

So instead of OpenCpn that I normally would use I am using a handheld GPS from Garmin. Same Charts, no degraded features.


Mark
Switching to a handheld seems unnecessary. Just turn off the blurring/fogging, and you can watch your dragging at whatever precision you want. You certainly don't need quilting while you're sitting still and zoomed in so close. Actually, you don't even need a chart to see swinging at anchor - just set tracking and watch the pattern for dragging.

The authors have made it clear that in a future release you'll be able to turn off blurring/fogging permanently with one click. Why isnt' that good enough? You're sounding a little dogmatic with your insistence that it be turned off by default.

You keep referring to degraded features. The blurring feature is a very good way to convey the limitations of the underlying cartography data (once they figure out how to undo blurring of the depth soundings). It is a serious liability for the program to display vector charts in a way that implies a degree of precision that the cartography data doesn't support. It's not degrading the featurse at all - in fact, it's upgrading the feature to accurately represent the imprecision of the underlying chart when overzoomed. If you refuse to believe this, then just turn it off.

By the way, I'm not so confident in the Garmin charts. Below pics show a shoreline-hugging route to Jost Little Harbour customs/immigration office in a powercat. Garmin handheld route on the top, NGA chart (verified correct by local knowledge) on the bottom. I'm not so sure I'd trust those Garmin charts. I'd clearly have gone ashore if I followed the northeast coastline on the Garmin handheld:



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Old 03-12-2014, 22:01   #164
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Gilletarom...

re:
"1 I zoomed in, zoomed out, and used F11, more that once ... I found that the icon bar finished by disappearing. Problem, I can not make it re-appear. The only way is to stop and restart O."

I cannot reproduce. I assume you mean the Toolbar?

Have you seen this bug more than once?

Anyone else seen this?

I will keep trying.

Thanks
Dave
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Old 03-12-2014, 23:42   #165
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

I have been waiting to mention this as I hoped I could fix it, but I noticed that since the soundings code was rewritten in opengl mode, sometimes the soundings just don't display at all for an area until I zoom in and out a lot of times.

Anyone else notice this? I think it should be fixed before a major release.
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