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Old 03-12-2014, 09:07   #136
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbcat View Post
Mark...

Thanks for the comparison images. Supports our points exactly.

All of the charts use the same base cartography. Probably traced with a digitizer from a paper chart. Do you know where cm93 data comes from?

And the plain fact is that the features on this chart, or any overzoomed chart, may not be where they are charted, and it is difficult or impossible to estimate the inherent error. They will of probably be schematically correct in areas where people sail often, and may even be proven by recent survey to be extremely accurate.

But the provenance of the data is not carried in the database. Only the estimated geographical position. So OCPN, or any other system using the same root cartography, has no way to verify what it asserts about geography.

Paper charts in general are accurate to about 1 mm at say twice the stated scale. Nearly all vector cartography in common use comes from tracings of paper charts.

Those chart images you show are about 20x overzoom. This means that the accuracy is not likely better than 10 mm on screen. That's half an inch.

Now, you may usually navigate right down the middle of that channel with 2 meter GPS accuracy, assuming HDOP is 1 at the time you are transiting. These are your home waters, and you are comfortable there, maybe. Or maybe you have tweaked the cm93 offsets to create a good fit with reality.

But the real issue is navigating at a place you have not been before, in marginal conditions. This is where overzoom inaccuracy coupled with non-monitored GPS inaccuracy (time based due to HDoP variation) is eventually going to produce an ugly result.

And that's the point of overzoom emphasis in OCPN. To remind a user emphatically that the cartography is suspect.

I suppose you may have hard science, or pretty pictures, but not both in this case.

Anyway, I imagine we shall ultimately bring the overzoom emphasis disable control to the options screen. And there will no doubt be a mad rush for new users to disable overzoom emphasis immediately and permanently.

I will be sorry to see these users ignore reality for the sake of pretty charts, and even sorrier to see an accident that might have been avoided with all information, or lack thereof, in use by the navigator.

But some people don't wear seat belts in cars, either....

Dave
Dave,

Your post beggars belief.

Quite simply you guys need to sit down and ask yourself if you are Nav Nazis or trying to develop a better program.
To have fogging on by default is imho navigational insanity. I want to be able to zoom in. Other programs using the same charts do it, but you think the users too stupid to allow it.


Mark
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:15   #137
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Another negative vote for the zoom blurring. Its raining, I'm at the helm going through a tight spot and I zoom the chart to the point I can make something out from 7 feet away at the helm. This is not the time I want to look up some option to remove fuzz.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:17   #138
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

...so, why not get rid of overzoom altogether, but include a checkbox setting to turn it on?
No more blur required.
Dave can set it up as it "should be" as default and those of us that enjoy tacking between the pixels can turn it off in settings?

Maybe, it (somehow) need not be a persistent setting, for safety in crewed boats.
Or even a big button on Toolbar, plainly "depressed"
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:37   #139
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Hello Dave,

Two small problems.

Following my tests with the cards around "Eatons Neck," I made two findings that have nothing to do with my previous post.

1 I zoomed in, zoomed out, and used F11, more that once ... I found that the icon bar finished by disappearing. Problem, I can not make it re-appear. The only way is to stop and restart O.

2. I'd charts sector 5 in a folder and charts sector 1 to another folder. Or some charts are contained in the two cases. They appeared twice in the bar charts.

So I removed the the folder area 5 in OpenCPN. After leaving O to update the database, I see that some the folder charts 5 still appear in the bar charts. This does not seem normal to me.

B.R.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:45   #140
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
... I want to be able to zoom in....
YOU CAN TURN IT OFF !!!!

At least one government agency is considering requiring ECDIS systems to disable overzoom because of commercial accidents by trained professionals. Just because it is allowed doesn't mean it is a good idea. There was a time when there were no seatbelts in cars, either. Through repeated accident research we learn. I have long said there are hidden dangers in raster and vector charts that the average user does not understand. From the examples posted here I think there are at least a few people in this thread that don't understand it, either.

But for those of us that think we know more about human perception than the experts, WE CAN TURN IT OFF!!!!!

YOU CAN TURN IT OFF !!!!!

The beginning user will see the fogging and maybe learn something from it. If it bother them, they will come in here and complain and someone will tell them how to turn it off. THEY CAN TURN IT OFF !!! Or they can read the wiki where it tells you how YOU CAN TURN IT OFF.

Dave is shepherding a group of people trying build a system that he can feel good about. I am continually amazed at the even keeled way he makes compromises. I am REALLY amazed this is the only thing he has dug his heels in about.

Dave: Thanks. Not just for the software you have made possible, but for the example of diplomacy you exhibit every day.

If it bothers people SO much, then:

(1) Create a fork and make your own version that doesn't have it
(2) Ask for a refund
(3) go use one of those products that doesn't annoy you when you overzoom.


Oh. In case I forgot to mention: YOU CAN TURN IT OFF !!!!!


-dan





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Old 03-12-2014, 09:55   #141
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Gilletarom...

re:
"I see that some the folder charts 5 still appear in the bar charts. This does not seem normal to me."

You are right, this is not normal. The duplicates should have been automatically removed when you added Region 1. I will test this case, and report back.

Thanks
Dave
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:09   #142
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

dacust... I like your post. :-) I agree with most of what you say.
The only thing I think should be changed is that the whole chart should be enlarged, not just the lines. (As you suggested yourself.) Soundings, icons, etc as well, so they remain legible despite the blurring.

HappySeagull: I am just suggesting a one-time warning, when disabling blurring, to explain why this is dangerous. It's not to "punish" the user; just to educate them. They can choose to ignore it. It won't come up again...

MarkJ: You don't seem to understand the problem with navigating on massive overzoom. The information the other chart software is pretending to show does not exist. They are making it up, lulling you into a false sense of security by making it look like you have a good chart, when you really don't.

All those who want to see the charts from 7ft away... the enlarging of the lines should help you, no? Isn't it easier to see from 7ft away than it used to be? The blurring will hardly be noticeable from that distance. I don't see the problem (except that soundings etc are illegible, which obviously needs fixing).

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Old 03-12-2014, 10:26   #143
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

3.2.2330 minor install notes:
1. the run OpenCPN check box was selected during install, but OpenCPN did not start up. Runs fine from menu. (Win7 32-bit)
2. Adding a Connection (COM3 adds the connection, but does not enable by default). Which I believe means you need 2 Applies, one to add and one to enable.
3. After I make changes to Settings, Apply/OK, they work fine for the session. When I re-open OpenCPN the settings are lost. I have the same issue on 3.2.2, so it is probably operator error. Config file defaulted to C:\ProgramData\opencpn\opencpn.ini
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:27   #144
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

The problem with blurring is a physiological one. I am squinting at enough things already, and seeing something blurred is discomforting. I think it would be safe to say this is true for humans in general. I have given a valid reason why I may operate temporarily in overzoom and was told that I should be able to do so with no problem when it is blurry. This is not true - blurry causes physiological issues itself regardless.

Blurring or dimming is simply a very poor way to implement the safety constraints the authors are attempting.

Making everything get larger, such as would happen with raster charts, is a better way to handle this.

However, I still don't understand the nanny thing on this point. I do understand the navigation issues with overzooming.

And to the poster who essentially said "love it or leave it" - I am disappointed to see this project go in that direction. That certainly portends a change from the past.

Do the authors really want multiple versions and user clans of this program in competition and confusing the waters?

Mark
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:42   #145
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...
And to the poster who essentially said "love it or leave it" - I am disappointed to see this project go in that direction. That certainly portends a change from the past.

Do the authors really want multiple versions and user clans of this program in competition and confusing the waters?

Mark
First, that was only me. Not the authors.

Second, the ONLY reason I said that is because YOU CAN TURN IT OFF.

If you can totally turn it off, why is it such an issue for you? You won't have any blurring at all. It will be working just like every other package. I don't understand why it's such a disturbing issue when YOU CAN TURN IT OFF.

-dan
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:50   #146
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

I have it turned off now. I was responding to your other options.

I have explained why using blurring is disturbing. It would seem that using this method of indicating overzoom will have the opposite of the intended effect by making most people want to turn it off as soon as possible just to get rid of the disturbing visual experience.

Why not use moire patterns to really drive the point home?

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Old 03-12-2014, 10:52   #147
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Pretty nice command:
cmake --build . --config release --target package

It completed with

Quote:
CPack: Create package using NSIS
CPack: Install projects
CPack: - Install project: opencpn
CPack: Create package
CPack: - package: C:/Data-Dart/Up-Soft/Navigation/opencpn-git/build/opencpn_3.
3.2330_setup.exe generated.
FinalizeBuildStatus:
Deleting file "Win32\release\PACKAGE\PACKAGE.unsuccessfulbui ld".
Touching "Win32\release\PACKAGE\PACKAGE.lastbuildstate" .
Done Building Project "C:\Data-Dart\Up-Soft\Navigation\opencpn-git\build\package
.vcxproj" (default targets).

Build succeeded.
0 Warning(s)
0 Error(s)
Found opencpn_3.3.2330_setup.exe and installed.

Note with this version the Options > resize double checked distortion is fixed.
The size of font in Options > Charts > Groups is still a little big I think.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:58   #148
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Instead of implementing such things as blurring and discussing it endless why not use all this manpower to make a better software?
There are several things which looks not very professional e.g. the windows at Mac OS X. See the scrambled tide window overlapped by the bars for example.
Gerhard
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:00   #149
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

Mark
Quote:
...problem with blurring is a physiological one. I am squinting at enough things already
Mark I agree with you, but would rather be aware of doing that at 4 to 5 steps past "Overzoom" than continue thinking I was at a reasonable zoom level and run aground!

Since we can disable it I think this should be a non-issue because this will settle out over time. (I am not going to disable it, I appreciate the feature!)

Gerhard, I agree with you about improving tide display, and hope we can move on to other things, to help improve and wrap up the package on all platforms. That we all care is very evident and that is wonderful. No need to argue about this because ideas/things will change later and those who want can work around it.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:04   #150
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2330 Released

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Originally Posted by Mollymawk View Post

HappySeagull: I am just suggesting a one-time warning, when disabling blurring, to explain why this is dangerous. It's not to "punish" the user; just to educate them. They can choose to ignore it. It won't come up again...


Caesar
Sorry-when I see "Blinking", "Dialogues" ,"Warnings" (and now) "Educate" my Nuisance-alarm kicks in, giving me mild electrical shocks....
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