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Old 04-11-2014, 23:55   #31
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollymawk View Post
Is this available for Admiralty charts outside the UK?
The Admiralty produced excellent charts of much of the world, and their old surveys are still the main basis of the charts printed by many foreign HOs, so I would hope so.
No, just UK

Quote:
What does it cost?
If OCPN were to do this, what would charts cost?

~Caesar

(PS - OS X is Unix... :-p )
It would require some infrastructure to handle, encrypt and distribute the charts, so most probably we would end up with a price tag similar to VMH.

O-charts would be able to handle the administrative part.

And it requires some coding resources.......
So, is this a priority?

Hubert
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:40   #32
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Hello All,

A quick calculation of the cost of the charts SHOM, French Naval Hydrographic and Oceanographic Service.

SHOM sells, at GeoTIFF format, so georeferenced, publishers of numeric charts, raster maps paper copy of the French coast.

It must first be converted into raster map to kap or as bsb3.
Each chart is sold 29.70 euros to the editor and the publisher must be repaid to the SHOM, 35% of its turnover on the charts.

There are approximately 200 maps in raster format to geotiff the only metropolis (with Corsica). We need a minimum investment of 5940 euros. To this must be added the costs of manufacturing raster maps and marketing costs ( The set of charts are required, by contract with the SHOM, be encrypted.) ....

If the publisher sells 200 charts to 100 euros, 35 euros must SHOM. If he sells 1000 copies of the charts, it must 35000 euros SHOM. In this case, the publisher must pay 40,940 euros to the SHOM.

If it sells 1,000 copies of the 200 charts to 100 euros per copy, the editor makes a turnover of EUR 100 0000. It remains available for 59,060 euros manufacturing costs, marketing expenses and profit.

No publisher has taken the risk so far to market charts SHOM for OpenCPN.

And yet, there is 100,000 pleasure boats in France.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:14   #33
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

And SHOM is a government body. So you have already paid for the charts via your tax money.
You are going to pay twice for the information?
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:33   #34
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by champ8242 View Post
And SHOM is a government body. So you have already paid for the charts via your tax money.
You are going to pay twice for the information?
You have a VDS 44. I have a VDS 34. How much our boats?

I've never seen anyone refuse to buy paper charts. Yet it is that SHOM sell ....

Meanwhile, no publisher of charts, no electronic charts available ....
And without charts, theoretically, in this case, OpenCPN should be unnecessary ....
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:52   #35
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

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Originally Posted by bcn View Post
No, just UK



It would require some infrastructure to handle, encrypt and distribute the charts, so most probably we would end up with a price tag similar to VMH.

O-charts would be able to handle the administrative part.

And it requires some coding resources.......
So, is this a priority?

Hubert
Not a priority for me, since I don't sail much in the UK...

But also, I would say there's not much point unless we can achieve one or both of the following:

- Less restrictive DRM (must not be a major hindrance to legal honest usage of the chart)

- Cheaper than existing sources

(Edit: of course, working on multiple platforms instead of just windows would be a start towards the first goal.)

Caesar
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:31   #36
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

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Originally Posted by Gilletarom View Post
Hello,



You have a VDS 44. I have a VDS 34. How much our boats?

I've never seen anyone refuse to buy paper charts. Yet it is that SHOM sell ....

Meanwhile, no publisher of charts, no electronic charts available ....
And without charts, theoretically, in this case, OpenCPN should be unnecessary ....
For paper charts I think it's different. They need to print, keep them on stock (over stock)

Electronic charts is different. It should be free (as in a lot of counties)

Bart
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:08   #37
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Bart,

electronic charts or better vector charts are free in just one country, the US.
There are some sources for raster charts, NZ or Brazil and then the Inland ENCs.
It's documented in the OCPN Wiki.

It is also very clear that the focus of the Hydrographic Offices is not the pleasure sector but the Marine (merchant & war) plus nowadays possible offshore resources.
The HOs are aware that their pricing schemes are not made for non-commercial use - but this is not a priority for them.

And a bit OT: paying taxes does not entitle for anything but paying more taxes.
For some reason in some languages they are called "tributes" as well.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:14   #38
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

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Originally Posted by champ8242 View Post
For paper charts I think it's different. They need to print, keep them on stock (over stock)

Electronic charts is different. It should be free (as in a lot of counties)

Bart
Most of the cost of the paper chart (or paper book, or music CD) is not the cost of the physical media, it's the license fee/royalties. Printing the chart costs them about £0.10 as they do it in bulk.

It's a difficult situation.
On the one hand, I feel in my heart that charts should be free. I'd love it if they were. And it would certainly help us, as if we bought new charts of everywhere we went it would add 50% to our annual expenditures, which we obviously can't afford. (We currently navigate largely on very old paper charts, collected and swapped with other yotties over many years. It's all we can afford.)

On the other hand, producing good quality charts is very expensive. Why should this be subsidised by every person in the country, when most don't use them? The majority of users are commercial ships, who are making a profit from their use of them, why shouldn't they pay? "Recreational" users are small fry.
Yes, the military wants charts anyway, but if they can get the commercial users to pay for them instead of the taxpayer, perhaps it makes sense.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:22   #39
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

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Bart,

electronic charts or better vector charts are free in just one country, the US.
There are some sources for raster charts, NZ or Brazil and then the Inland ENCs.
It's documented in the OCPN Wiki.
Hubert, I believe there are some charts of the south China sea or somewhere in that area which are free? (Not sure if they are libre / public domain as in the US - where, incidentally, the free charts situation is due to the fact that it is mandated by the US constitution that all government works are public domain - but they are certainly free-as-in-beer.)

Quote:
And a bit OT: paying taxes does not entitle for anything but paying more taxes.
For some reason in some languages they are called "tributes" as well.
In most countries, the majority of tax money is spent on public services / infrastructure / in the general public good.
Of course, then there is the US where 50% is spent on killing and oppressing people in other countries for no real reason...
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:27   #40
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

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Hubert, I believe there are some charts of the south China sea or somewhere in that area which are free?
Yes, this is the case, but is very marginal, that's why I omitted it.
In the Wiki those are mentioned.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:11   #41
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

I have a favour to ask of all beta testers.

Please experiment with the new "Chart Zoom Detail Level" slider in the UI pane of the settings.
For each value try zooming in and out and see which value makes the charts switch at the right time for you.

With enough reports we can choose a sensible default for new installs. (Maybe the sensible default is the current 0. But we should make sure this is the case.)

Please test separately for raster charts and for vector (excluding CM93) charts. Do we need separate sliders?

While we're about it I guess people may as well report which CM93 detail level they prefer, too.

Please also tell us your screen size and resolution, or pixel density if you know it (DPI, or more correctly PPI).


My own report:
For raster charts -3 is the most comfortable setting. (0 is nearly unusable as most charts are displayed too small to read.)
I do not have any non-CM93 vector charts to test.
My preferred CM93 detail level is +1 or +2.
My screen is 17", 1920*1024. Density about 105ppi.


Thanks everyone!
Caesar
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:04   #42
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Hi
WinXP, Screen 15', 1680x1050, DPI 96.
Raster(BSB) and CM93.
For the raster charts I can't see much differences between -5 and +5 but while zooming out the switch to CM93 is somewhat later at +5 so that value is preferred when I choose to use rasters. If still I would like to see raster charts instead of CM93 in even more zoomed out views I could need more than value +5.
Håkan
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Old 05-11-2014, 16:07   #43
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Håkan,

It's strange that with the rasters you don't see any difference even between -5 and +5 -- for me it's a massive difference even from one number to the next.
I wonder if you have very few different scales of chart in the region where you are testing?

I think the switch between raster and CM93 is not exactly the intended use case, but it's interesting to hear it has that effect.
I keep my rasters and CM93 in separate chart groups since I find they don't work well together.

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Old 05-11-2014, 23:52   #44
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

On a 15" screen, I find the switch from 1:150 000, 1:50 000, 1:20 000 to 1:10 000 raster charts most satisfying at -3 setting.
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Old 06-11-2014, 00:11   #45
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Re: OpenCPN Beta Version 3.3.2302 Released

Caesar..
There are normally three levels of charts for a single area in Sweden, overview(500 000-1 500 000), coast(180 000-250 000) and archipelago(50 000-25 000). Sometime also sectionals(<= 5 000) are available.

I also use different chart types in groups but also often use a group where both chart types are used together. And in opposite I found OCPN being to only program where raster and vector charts can work together. For areas where I lack raster this is handy.
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