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Old 31-01-2016, 12:33   #1051
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Currently the EBL/VRM is supposed to give a constant bearing from the boat to a point or show the change in bearing of a point from the boat. It does not rotate with the boat nor can you set the angle for the heading or COG. I think what is being asked for should be relatively easy to implement, but should it be done as an extension to the EBL/VRM or should it be a new tool? What are the required parameters and conditions that need to be met? Should it be like the DR tool where you have a dialog to setup the lines, or should it be like the EBL but have a properties dialog that lets you fine tune angles, lengths, etc?

I am just being mindful of how the other tools developed where the original idea had to be changed quite a bit. It is much easier to build when I know most of what is required rather than a little bit and then try to keep up with the requests for major changes.

One last thing, is OD the correct place for this, or should it be in with the sailing (polar?) plugin, or any other plug in for that matter (I don't want to step on toes!).

Jon
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Old 31-01-2016, 12:58   #1052
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Jon..

what Gilletarom or Rick are proposing is certainly a new "species":
objects/boundaries attached/glued to the vessel. (EBLs are this already. Or DR.
Motivated by navigation.)

Laylines are an example (modified by True/Apparent wind and speed?..).
A SafetyContour would be another one a boat can carry with her. (In three dimensions - Z air and draw). And this contour can be a circle (Point/radius), parallel or a Boundary.
Now imagine this changing with scenarios like offshore, approach, harbor/channel. And/or velocity.

You mentioned in another thread that the boundaries are now active in Watchdog and Weather Routing. Optimal would be to have this in a Route Checker - Baikal published a link to a teaser from TimeZero for a RouteChecker integrated in Route planning. Very appealing and practical. Requires to have access to the vector chart objects.
(Automatic routing is nothing I would do, but seems to be the latest hype - like 3D charts some years ago)

Hubert
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Old 31-01-2016, 13:22   #1053
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Hubert,
So what would you propose the 'new' tool be called and what do you think should be the characteristics of this new tool? To me 'Lay Lines' are to do with historic connections between different points on land which 'seem' to have social or theological significance. I am not sure that is what you mean by the term, but....

I put the boundary check into the weather routing pi as someone suggested that it would have been useful. I did it to show it was easy to use the JSON messaging facility to add boundary checking to a plugin. Is there another route planning plugin that attempts to find routes or check current routes for issues? If there is, can you point me at the git repository?

In my previous navigation software there was 'auto route planning' which sort of worked and sort of didn't. You could use it to give you a starter route then you HAD to go in and check the route and make it more sensible. But it would show you different ways to go round islands, shallow patches etc. So as an aid in route planning it was a useful first step.

Jon
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:13   #1054
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

If we compare with a radar where the expression EBL is originating the line following the boat in both forward and turning movements is to be called EBL. On a radar we draw an EBL to a point through a target. Then when we move or turn the line is following. The difference in appearance between a radar and OCPN is that radar is head up and the surroundings are rotating instead of the boat's heading.
The method to initiate the EBL would be as it is now. Point on the chart where the end point should be and when released it should follow the boat's movements.
I hope my use of English is understandable - if not pls ask.
Håkan
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Old 31-01-2016, 14:33   #1055
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

The devil! That is terribly disturbing ...

I was not asking for the moon, we can just set the angle between EBL and the axis of the boat.
Obviously, it must be able to turn with the boat. It is therefore different from what has been established so far.
Should we set up a new tool or should he change EBL preferences by adding an additional possibility. Jongough, it is for you to consider in advance the amount of work it takes in each case.

Do not try to complicate your life in this area.

We also need a line that indicates the wind direction. Two ways to consider:
- Either we just manually enter the heading that direction.
- Either you go for the NMEA network, containing information that direction.
But beware, many boats do not have their equipment in a NMEA network that carries the information. In short, remember that OpenCPN was initially a very simple tool and easy to use.

First see if you can easily offer this possibility as an EBL only defined by its direction and that would be:
- Either hanging on the boat,
- Either side of the boat (but not too far, because it must always remain visible in the map area).

Please do not let yourself lead to too many extraordinary changes.

Best regards. Gilletarom.
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Old 31-01-2016, 15:40   #1056
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Rick,
I have updated the weather_routing_pi as I managed to try it out and the boundary check was using the wrong lat/lon. It now appears to work, although, for me, it does not avoid land areas, but it does route around boundaries within the limitations of the resolution being used. So if you want to try it out you will need to get the update from my repository.

Jon

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Jon
This is exciting I will try it tomorrow. Traveling today.
Gille you are referring to tacking lines or layline which is a very good idea.
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Old 01-02-2016, 01:38   #1057
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilletarom View Post
..... Do not try to complicate your life in this area. ......
In short, remember that OpenCPN was initially a very simple tool and easy to use. ......
Please do not let yourself lead to too many extraordinary changes.
Without saying that certain requests are in above mentioned category, I generally agree with Gilletarom.

Automation is not a solution for every problem, and certainly not for lack of navigation knowledge. Using perfect navigation software doesn't make somebody a good navigator/sailor/boater (but I'm sure there are a lot of people who act as such).

OpenCPN and the plugins are made by software engineers that are more or less experienced navigators. Don't forget that many users of OpenCPN are neither software engineers nor experienced navigators.

Keep it as simple as possible. Finish present beta's first, allow for a long period of practical testing of the final version by all users, solve the bugs that still will pop up, and not until then start developing possibly required changes and additions.
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Old 01-02-2016, 02:25   #1058
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAV View Post
Without saying that certain requests are in above mentioned category, I generally agree with Gilletarom.

Automation is not a solution for every problem, and certainly not for lack of navigation knowledge. Using perfect navigation software doesn't make somebody a good navigator/sailor/boater (but I'm sure there are a lot of people who act as such).

OpenCPN and the plugins are made by software engineers that are more or less experienced navigators. Don't forget that many users of OpenCPN are neither software engineers nor experienced navigators.

Keep it as simple as possible. Finish present beta's first, allow for a long period of practical testing of the final version by all users, solve the bugs that still will pop up, and not until then start developing possibly required changes and additions.
Mostly correct but one point is forgotten to say: Software should be intuitive to use.

Nobody reads large manuals to find out how a simple function works. People expects the same behavior of a standard function they know from other software they use in their operating system. Even worse when plugins of a software have a different behavior and different window layouts.

Instead of writing more and more pages for a manual there should be more efforts to make the main program and its plugins more user friendly.

Gerhard
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Old 01-02-2016, 07:26   #1059
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Hello Jongough,

back testing.

With the latest version of 1329 and OD today contained in the thingie. OD is set in its preferences for the toolbar to appear only when we wants to use the OD.

I try to draw a EBL and I observe that 4 icons become black in the OD icon bar. From that moment, it is impossible to click an icon on the black icons, nothing occur.

I try various tests but it seems random ???
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Old 01-02-2016, 11:58   #1060
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Gerhard,
The manual in OD is big because it contains screen shots and an explanation of all the settings that 'can' be changed. I took the view that if I needed a default value I may not be the best person to select that, so I exposed all the default values so that the user could change them.

I am hoping the interactions with OD are the same as OCPN and the normal GUI interfaces. I have tried to provision left and right mouse clicks and keyboard short cuts, but I have not provisioned menu items. Are these interfaces not 'natural', what ever 'natural' is? Does OD seem difficult to use, or awkward in any way? If so, please let me know and, if possible, what would make it better.

Jon

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarCode View Post
Mostly correct but one point is forgotten to say: Software should be intuitive to use.

Nobody reads large manuals to find out how a simple function works. People expects the same behavior of a standard function they know from other software they use in their operating system. Even worse when plugins of a software have a different behavior and different window layouts.

Instead of writing more and more pages for a manual there should be more efforts to make the main program and its plugins more user friendly.

Gerhard
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:04   #1061
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Gilletarom,
I changed the toolbar interface a little bit to try and stop some errors that could occur if you used it correctly. Basically you can pick any tool on the toolbar UNTIL you start to use the tool of choice. At that point all the other tools will grey out so you cannot click them. You can only click on the active tool in the toolbar and this will terminate the use of that tool. You can also use the 'Esc' key or click on the icon in the main OCPN tool bar to terminate the drawing.

Is it not working like this for you?

Jon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilletarom View Post
Hello Jongough,

back testing.

With the latest version of 1329 and OD today contained in the thingie. OD is set in its preferences for the toolbar to appear only when we wants to use the OD.

I try to draw a EBL and I observe that 4 icons become black in the OD icon bar. From that moment, it is impossible to click an icon on the black icons, nothing occur.

I try various tests but it seems random ???
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:08   #1062
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

I agree with Hakan that an EBL is in the strict sense of the term, to act just as if does in the radar.

I believe what Gilletarom was speaking about is a tacking line or layline attached to the boat which shows the boats tacking capability based upon some user input for angles off the wind. These are two entirely separate tools. Do not confuse one with the other. Jon has provided an EBL.

At some future point a Layline Tool could be created using some of the same code. That is the power of ODraw, Jon's creation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakan View Post
Gille.. All..
Re: "Second problem, at present with the EBL, is that if the boat changes direction, the EBL attached to the boat can not turn with the boat."

If think you've a point here.
The, at least for me, primary use for an EBL is to draw an instant bearing line to a (radar) target to be able to see if the angle change over time. If the target moves in front the line he will pass ahead of me. If the target moves behind the line he will pass behind me. If on the line we will collide.
As it is now the line will only watch the target's behavior, not mine. If I turn away from the target the line would also turn to support getting the target behind the line.
Correct? Or---?
Håkan
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:14   #1063
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Jon, I tried wx_route and could not find the boundary part. Can you give me a clue?
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:54   #1064
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Rick,
Currently my pulls have not been accepted into the weather routing plugin, so the only way to test is to clone my repository at:
https://github.com/jongough/weather_routing_pi

This is my fork of Sean's weather_routing_pi, if this is not the current and valid source can you point me to the correct one and I will apply my changes to that?

You will need to use the 'fixes' branch and compile that. You will then find when you go to properties you can select 'Boundary' in the same location you can select 'Landfall'. If you do this AND have a boundary in the way of your path when you do the 'Calculate' it will create the route around the boundary.

Jon

Quote:
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Jon, I tried wx_route and could not find the boundary part. Can you give me a clue?
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Old 01-02-2016, 13:21   #1065
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Re: Ocpn-Draw and Boundary

Jongough,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongough View Post
Gilletarom,
I changed the toolbar interface a little bit to try and stop some errors that could occur if you used it correctly. Basically you can pick any tool on the toolbar UNTIL you start to use the tool of choice. At that point all the other tools will grey out so you cannot click them. You can only click on the active tool in the toolbar and this will terminate the use of that tool. You can also use the 'Esc' key or click on the icon in the main OCPN tool bar to terminate the drawing.

Is it not working like this for you?

Jon
As often, I find it hard to adapt. I saw a bug, so that the operation had changed.

So I understand this:

First case :
With the OD icon bar that appears only when OD work, the OD toolbar is used only to select the tool you want to use.
When you stop doing, eg EBL, OD stops working.

In other words :
I click on the icon in the OD O icons bar
I choose a tool from the O icon bar
I make what you can make with this tool
I alt or Esc.
OD stops working.

Oops, I just found something by accident:
There are two ways to select a tool e:
- By clicking on it in the toolbar
- Or so I right click I want. This will select the tool that I want to use.

So, this seem Ok.

Second case :
I choice to have the OD icons bar permanently visible :
Similar functionning.

Third case :
With OD icons bar never visible :
In this case, it is impossible to change of tool. You can use only one tool. The one which is visible when you run O.

it seem to me that you can destroy this case and
and just keep the first two.

Best regards. Gilletarom.
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