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Old 21-04-2015, 19:13   #16
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
I'm sorry, you are correct. OpenCPN should work with the NGW-1.
It does. I have one in my setup. Works fine. Haven't tried the canbus route but I do have a NGT hooked up that I run with MaxSea.

I also have a second NGW on my N2K network attached to my old NMEA0183 only autopilot and it works fine in that application too. You need to use Actisense's NMEA Reader software to tune the PGNs/sentances for best performance. But in my experience both do what it says on the tin.

Chris
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:26   #17
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Or -- the other thing you can do, and what I did, is this -- use the NMEA0183 output of your plotter. Can be done cheaply with a RS422 to USB adapter. Works perfectly on my system. My Zeus plotter does a pretty sophisticated conversion -- other than AIS. For that, though, I have a direct USB connection to my AIS transponder. OpenCPN is capable of using multiple serial connections at once.
This is what I do as well. Take NMEA0183 from the Raymarine e125 MFD and send that to OpenCPN. the e125 MFD bridges or translates some 2000 items to 0183 but not all, the e125 does not send AIS down the 0183 port either.

The ICOM 506 AIS has both 0183 and 2000 ports. I plan on feeding my 2000 network AIS with the 506 and OpenCPN AIS with the ICOM 506 0183 port. I will see if that completes the remaining data needed for OpenCPN. I also plan on adding a serial GPS to the 506 so I do not need my e125 MFD on to receive GPS, to reduce power consumption when no MFD display is needed.

To the great minds of OpenCPN, my autopilot is the last item on my boat still running 0183. In the near future I plan on upgrading the Autopilot due advance features I want to use sailing with a new autopilot and 2000 wind instruments. Can you (y'all) look harder at NMEA 2000 support?
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:37   #18
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by sailsunfurled View Post
Can you (y'all) look harder at NMEA 2000 support?
No matter how hard we look, it is still a closed, proprietary protocol, requiring a payment and NDA even just to get the specifications.
The chances we invest any time in reinventing the wheel and implementing what CANboat already does are pretty low - SignalK is the only way forward here, IMO.

Pavel
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:06   #19
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Re: NMEA2000

Isn't nmea2000 reverse engineered already?

It's like using ntfs file system... it works, yes, but there are better free alternatives.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:19   #20
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by nohal View Post
.
The chances we invest any time in reinventing the wheel and implementing what CANboat already does are pretty low - SignalK is the only way forward here, IMO.

Pavel
https://github.com/canboat/canboat/wiki

Signal K ยป Welcome
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Old 04-05-2015, 05:51   #21
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Re: NMEA2000

Hello, maybe someone could help the not so knowledge gifted and explain the problem of nmea2000 and openCPN . To explain my notunderstanding: to run oCPN I need a PC, I got to buy, to display AIS I got to buy one, to display radar I got to buy one, navigation information, guess, I got to buy some sensors.

Now I have an actisense.com NGT-1, I can directly read png's and their "translation", I can use this in Fugawi and half a dozen other navigation software.

Nobody asks-in my understanding - oCPN to directly read from the CAN-bus, but why not use an existing hardware, actisense.com is not the only one. We bought all other sensors too. A NGW -1 is nowadays a step backward into medieval times.

I hope for someone's understanding, short explanation and directions to solve the problem.
Thank you very much
Heinrich
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:24   #22
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NMEA2000

OpenCPN works now with the NGW-1.

A PC cannot interface with NMEA2000 without some external hardware. Since there are available on the market such interface hardware that happens to include the software to translate the PGNs the OpenCPN developers feel their time is better spent not reinventing the wheel. Then there are some users that don't agree.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:46   #23
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by blubaju View Post
Hello, maybe someone could help the not so knowledge gifted and explain the problem of nmea2000 and openCPN . To explain my notunderstanding: to run oCPN I need a PC, I got to buy, to display AIS I got to buy one, to display radar I got to buy one, navigation information, guess, I got to buy some sensors.

Now I have an actisense.com NGT-1, I can directly read png's and their "translation", I can use this in Fugawi and half a dozen other navigation software.

Nobody asks-in my understanding - oCPN to directly read from the CAN-bus, but why not use an existing hardware, actisense.com is not the only one. We bought all other sensors too. A NGW -1 is nowadays a step backward into medieval times.

I hope for someone's understanding, short explanation and directions to solve the problem.
Thank you very much
Heinrich
Heinrich...
If the explanation 3 posts above was not enough, I will try it with a question this time:
So we installed NGT-1 and got the PGN, it looks something like "1327942750836007870830495803752375092384023984028 " Now what?

Pavel
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:28   #24
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Re: NMEA2000

The post from Heinrich is right. If you change your instruments or buy a newer boat NMEA 200 is present.

Now I Think NGW from Actisense and nmea 0183 is a Step back. The Future is nmea 2000.
I have OpenCPN also financially supported, but I will now switch to Fugawi Marine 5.
OpenCPN is a goods software, but the Do not use there potential.
WhatsApp i can not understand why Numerus individualisierte developers can use data from the NMEA 2000 Bus and this only free the Group to OpenCPN not.
Here is work with Actisense or DigitalYacht together for future very nice.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:04   #25
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by nohal View Post
Heinrich...
If the explanation 3 posts above was not enough, I will try it with a question this time:
So we installed NGT-1 and got the PGN, it looks something like "1327942750836007870830495803752375092384023984028 " Now what?

Pavel
Dear Pavel,

I know, you are an important contributor to openCPN and I am nuts.

This is why I tried to ask decently and I do hope in a friendly manner for an explanation of the problem.

To use your sample, what do you do as programmer with any (NMEA0183) sentence if you do not have any description? Nothing or you try to find it somewhere. And where did you get them to read CM93/2, AIS or all other information that is displayed.

An answer like: NMEA0183 through an NMEA2000/NMEA0183bridge brings all navigational data we need to bring a boat somewhere, I would agree.

But then there is a new standard and there is more information and faster. And all new equipment speaks it. And though not directly needed for navigation, to have them on the dashboard and more important in the logbook would be a nice feature.

Ok., Github, which was offline when I looked in when I wrote my question, brought some little legal information, but not enough, since 1975 I did not write any programs and programming my Samsung TV is difficult enough.

in my understanding, if I buy an Actisense NGT-1 or some competition, they are responsible for the licensing fees, like Raymarine, Furuno or anyone else who provides the data, openCPN uses the data provided by them. In my understanding at least in Europe this would be ok.

Mind taking a minute time and give a proper reply? Takes about same time as above not helpfull answer and might help people to understand

Thank you very much.

Heinrich
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:01   #26
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NMEA2000

The NGT-1 already works with OpenCPN. The speed issue is handled by increasing the serial port rate which is not limited to 4,800 baud in OpenCPN. Anyway, if NMEA2000 were natively supported it would still be by serial port because that is the only hardware available to OpenCPN. A device like the NGT-1 takes the burden off the computer as well as handling the licensing issues. What is it that you don't like about the NGT-1 or similar solution?

And we have to face the fact that NMEA2000 is not a terribly fast bus (250kbps). That's why most vendors are going with a proprietary Ethernet based bus. NMEA2000 may replace NMEA0183 but it can never be used for high speed data intensive applications like radar and fish finders.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:02   #27
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Re: NMEA2000

I wonder if this rather complete Vesper Watchmate Vision AIS, router, Nmea 2000 & Nmea 0183 device would be a solution to consider?
WatchMate Vision AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine

Serial data
1 fully isolated USB port (mini),
1 isolated NMEA 0183 input (RS422 4800/38400 baud)
1 NMEA 0183 output (RS422 4800/38400 baud)

Connectivity
NMEA 2000, NMEA 0183, USB, Wireless 802.11 b/g

All input NMEA 0183 sentences are repeated to the NMEA 0183 output, USB and WiFi. Selected NMEA 2000 PGN's (heading, wind, depth, speed, temperature, and log) are translated to NMEA 0183 sentences and repeated to the NMEA 0183 output, USB and WiFi. This allows a wide variety of NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 instruments to be interfaced and output to all other connected devices.

NMEA 2000
NMEA 2000 certified. LEN 2. Micro-C male connector. Female drop cable required (not included). Compatible with all NMEA 2000 certified Raymarine SeaTalk NG devices (DeviceNet cable required), Garmin, SimNet (NMEA 2000 adapter cable required), and other NMEA 2000 certified products.

Wireless Access Point for up to 5 devices or client of existing router

Protocols IEC 61162-1, NMEA 0183, NMEA 0183 HS, NMEA 2000

Or is the Articsense better for some reason?
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:53   #28
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Re: NMEA2000

Rick,

the Actisense is just a gateway (NGT) that delivers the CAN packages.

The NGW translates the N2K data into NMEA0183 - all the PGNs that are implemented, not every possible one.
This is a simple solution for OCPN today. And a correct one.

What would it take to have direct input of N2K into OCPN?
Integration of the reverse engineered stuff as elaborated by Kees in his Canboat project - the translation of the N2K protocol into data that can be digested by OCPN.

But: the internal data model of OCPN - Dave, Pavel correct me if I'm being wrong - are the data that are present in NMEA0183. Adding data objects = hard coded.
Implies to cope with the complete set of options and data from N2K the internal data model of OCPN would have been remodeled.
What to do with various instances of one object (GPS for example)? We use priorities for data connections to sort this out today, but N2K would allow for several GPS on one bus.

Do we need engine data in OCPN? One would like to have virtual instruments, a glass cockpit? Then take the stuff from the SignalK and use it.

So the question: what do we loose today with the NGW solution (or other gateways translating N2K-->NMEA0183)? One will need always a hardware device to connect to CAN/N2K.
Which data are missing for a chart plotter and navigator?

To remember what you see generally in other programs is dealing as well with a subset to the PGNs -you just don't see the NGW.

Hubert

btw.: I voted for the feature request for N2K support
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:06   #29
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Re: NMEA2000

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Originally Posted by blubaju View Post
But then there is a new standard and there is more information and faster. And all new equipment speaks it. And though not directly needed for navigation, to have them on the dashboard and more important in the logbook would be a nice feature.

.......

in my understanding, if I buy an Actisense NGT-1 or some competition, they are responsible for the licensing fees, like Raymarine, Furuno or anyone else who provides the data, openCPN uses the data provided by them. In my understanding at least in Europe this would be ok.

Thank you very much.

Heinrich
Heinrich,

when Pavel has been answering laconically perhaps because this issue is coming up periodically and no, it is not solved.

In the previous post I tried to explain what it would imply for OCPN to implement a direct N2K access.

And you are right: some of the data that are N2K specific would be interesting for the logbook - and would have to be implemented there as well....

The only issue with the licenses is that not paying a license fee you don't have access to the specs of N2K - the same game as for NMEA0183. And even paying those you can't use them in open source as you can't publish them under the license agreement.
Reverse engineering N2K is some more cumbersome than NMEA0183 and there are still the private PGNs from manufacturers.

Time will come...

So don't worry, be happy

Hubert
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:49   #30
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Re: NMEA2000

Can I broaden out this discussion by asking what the long-term strategy is for OpenCPN?

Before I do that, let me prefix my remarks by saying that I am a comparative newcomer to OpenCPN but not to hardware and software, having worked with everything from PDP8s and IBM mainframes to multi-core Xeons and the Raspberry Pi, with more types of bus than London Transport. I am VERY impressed by OpenCPN and its capabilities, and my questions are asked in the friendliest possible way.

If NMEA0183 was less than perfect, NMEA2000 takes that to a whole new dimension of inscrutability. It seems to be designed to keep non-members of the cartel well and truly on the outside. Whilst the hardware (CAN bus) will undoubtedly fall by the wayside in favour of ethernet-type connections, the software part of the protocol looks here to stay. However, many marine instruments - certainly the "cheaper" ones - are now offered with NMEA2000 only. Having to add NMEA0183 converters makes them a lot more expensive.

Both protocols will probably continue to exist side-by-side for some time to come, but 0183 will eventually disappear. When that time comes, what do the developers envisage for OpenCPN?

Like so many aspects of computing, it is difficult "to see the wood for the trees". We all have different ideas of what is obvious and not worth mentioning, and sometimes important scraps of information get left out. There is a lot of very detailed information available, but not much in terms of overview and how things fit together. Signal-K looks like a very interesting and worthwhile initiative. How will this fit with OpenCPN? I haven't looked at the code, but is it true that OpenCPN is based on an NMEA0183 backbone, in which case would it not be better to move towards an abstraction layer (which may or may not be Signal-K based), with separate modules for input/output of NMEA0183, NMEA2000 and anything else that comes along?

Kind regards

Andrew
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