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Old 06-07-2015, 14:26   #16
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

I like the idea of an internet connection AIS type display for the coast where you may have boats without AIS and for ocean passage where you will be able to pick up beyond the 100 nm limit of todays AIS antenna/receivers. Of course this would necisitate you having internet connection even in a long ocean passage but I could see this being useful if you are say in the middle of the Atlantic and you just lost your mast but your internet is still working. Could be very handy to see that cargo ship say 250 nm away heading your way as you jump into your life raft. (for those who abandon ship that is) :big grin:

Traveling even on US East coast off shore up or down the coast you are going to find a lot of places that don't have cell signal. My previous apartment in Southern Miami that was beach front you couldn't get a mobile signal from and then you have large areas like the NJ coast with national parks etc. A safety system needs to be working 99.9% of the time and an internet based system on the water does not cut it for me. Those doing bay sailing are of course in a different boat.
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Old 06-07-2015, 14:31   #17
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Live AIS Via Internet

To mattkab: Why? It would not be sending the information over any VHF band, only over the Internet to a server. Just like the Marinetraffic mAIS app, which by following your logic would then be equally illegal.


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Old 06-07-2015, 14:54   #18
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

There are simply two different type of beasts

- real AIS transponder with their MMSI, homologation, regulations etc.
With all their deficiencies we know from daily observation and use

- and location based services(?) which are erroneously (not by chance) labeled "AIS"

The latter have no quality control, you don't know how old the signal is, if the data are filtering, how those are composed etc. What do you know about the source of this data?
Kind of a "Selfie" filtered by Facebook. And a lot of Photoshop applied if you like.

Now it is up to you if you think that kind of iX stuff is relevant for you. - Comment for CarCode: pun intended.

If somebody comes up with a plug-in for that type of data one will have to think how to evaluate it. Data harvesting is not free for the one that feeds in the data.
And if you want quality data the harvesters will ask for your credit card...

Time will show - remember the old argument that fifty billion flies ingesting **** does not imply that this kind of food is healthy for you.

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Old 06-07-2015, 16:50   #19
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

For what it's worth, the mAIS app will transmit a position report via internet to marinetraffic. We occasionally transmit a position report if out of base station range, but not for navigation purposes, just to update our position on the marinetraffic site. The app allows you to set transmission intervals down to about 1 minute.
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Old 06-07-2015, 16:53   #20
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

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Originally Posted by CarCode View Post
You are talking bullshit, right? How many miles is your internet connection at sea?

Gerhard
The context of the thread was in congested waterways such as harbors, cheasapeak, ICW, etc...

I would say coverage is upwards of 95% in those areas and the dead areas are typically the least congested parts, so there is the least harm in losing AIS.
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Old 06-07-2015, 17:02   #21
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

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Originally Posted by mattkab View Post
It only costs nothing if your time is free.

Thinking about it a bit more, one of the benefits of internet based AIS over VHF-based AIS is the expanded range -- via the internet I could pull targets hundreds of miles away. That would be a huge help in some circumstances.

Maybe iconography could help -- render VHF AIS targets as is. render internet targets differently. Then provide a mechanism to turn on and off the different targets (because I forsee the same target rendered twice on the display from the two sources).

It would be a bit of work, but maybe I jumped into the "no" group too fast.
As I said, I don't know that any developers would be jumping on board to program it...but once programed, it would be nearly free for anyone running chartplotting on thier laptop who already has a hotspot on board (maybe a small cost for data usage) Of course, the nice folks who brought us OpnCapn did it out of the goodness of thier hearts, so....

It's one less device to buy, install and provide to power on the boat.

As far as someone suggesting the data might be old, just like any naviagtional data, you always have to verify and compare to other sources...but if you see a big container ship bearing down on you and the only containership within 20miles is the SS Run Me Down, being able to put a radio call out to the SS Run Me Down is a lot better than "hey container ship in this general area..." More data is almost always better than less data.
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Old 06-07-2015, 17:10   #22
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

So, the noise aside, what are the feeds and where are they?

I can imagine as the entities that run the service are (?) private entities, they may apply restrictions and charges (?).

Or is there a public, global feed too?

b.
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Old 06-07-2015, 17:11   #23
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

Online stores sell the Icom MXA 5000 AIS Receiver for just over $200. Its a 2 channel receiver with multiplex circuitry and a built in antenna splitter. This seems to be the best deal going in a standalone AIS box. I'm also picking up one of those $55 AIS receivers to use with OpenCPN to try it out and I may hook it up to my chart plotter as well to see how it does.
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Old 06-07-2015, 21:09   #24
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

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I'm a little surprised that no developers have replied to this. After playing with this over the weekend there is NO doubt that Internet AIS will soon be made available within most other laptop/tablet chart plotters moving forward. I can assure you if OpenCPN does not provide this capability, it will go the way of the Do Do bird for many existing users like me. Posters on other related threads have said this capability was dangerous when compared to real AIS receivers. Those posters have simply never tried it. The "free" webpage screens might have significant delays as noted, but the downloaded software does not....
I think you're being a little snarky here. How can you "assure" that OpenCPN will disappear if they don't do what you want? How can you claim that everyone who objects to "Internet AIS" has never tried it? There are TCP feeds of AIS data in certain regions, so many of us have tried it, and I still have concerns.

The biggest concern, which you seem to be oblivious to, is MarineTraffic's reliance on "volunteer" receiving stations to collect their data. These are typically AIS receivers located at someone's home near the water, which feed their data up onto the Internet. The issue isn't time delays as much as it is total blackout that occurs when the volunteer receivers go down.

Let me give you a very specific example. The early evening of Tuesday, June 23 a severe storm blew through the Wilmington,DE-Philadelphia area. There were downed trees and power outages all over this area. I happened to be following the track of L'Hermione and other tall ships through the C&D Canal and Delaware River on Marinetraffic.com at the time, since our power did not go out. But the vessel updates completely stopped for several hours during the storm. I do not know the exact reason, but I believe that it's likely that the volunteer stations experienced power outages so they stopped receiving AIS signals from the ships and/or they lost Internet service from their ISPs.

Now suppose you're out on the water with a bunch of ships around you. A big storm blows through, reducing visibility to zero. You don't have radar, and you're relying on MarineTraffic for collision avoidance. But the power goes down at the receiving stations, and you lose all signal from the nearby ships.

Sorry, I'm happy limiting OpenCPN to real AIS like what you get from your GX2100. The internet stuff is fun for playing around, but I have a hard time imagining that it will be reliable enough to trust for a quality program like OpenCPN. With AIS receivers now available as low as $55 (and certain to come down even more), it's a no-brainer IMO.
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Old 06-07-2015, 23:02   #25
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

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Originally Posted by Eirik View Post
To mattkab: Why? It would not be sending the information over any VHF band, only over the Internet to a server. Just like the Marinetraffic mAIS app, which by following your logic would then be equally illegal.
Maybe I misunderstood the intent.

I read "I also would think it would be a neat feature if O could also transmit the AIS information." which implies transponder to me, which can become illegal quickly. Quite simply, do not transmit on VHF bands with any non-certified hardware or software without consulting the correct people.

I don't want to get into specifics as my real job is associated with this, and I am not a lawyer, so I can't give appropriate advice in this conversation.

If you are talking about only an upload to marinetraffic.com or similar service, via FTP or a web API or some such, then I don't have any idea of the legalities.
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Old 06-07-2015, 23:19   #26
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

Using an App on an I or An or xy device which feeds your location, speed, heading to Marinetraffic (or similar organization) via some network (WiFi, 3/4/5G) should not be mistaken as AIS, even if these (private - but would be the same if a non-profit community does this) call the results then afterwards "AIS" and feed the data mixed with data streams from AIS transponders back on Internet.

SignalK developers discussed and covered the exchange of this type of positional or weather data or hazards (for example)in their specs. Would allow for meshed networks from private access points etc. and would not mean any bigger issue to be displayed by OCPN.

But don't confuse these "buddy generated" or Facebook (=Marinetraffic) generated data sets with AIS.

Legal considerations are another different field.

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Old 06-07-2015, 23:47   #27
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

Ok, I understand your concerns about non-AIS data. But couldn't one filter out the data from the Internet if a real AIS signal is available. Then you have the best of both worlds. Phone positioning for boats without AIS transponders and real AIS signals from boats that do.

Have you guys not used Boat Beacon and Marine Traffic? When you click on a target boat, you get lots more information to work with, including a picture of the ship so you can look for it more easily.

I realize there is a reluctance to change, but change is a coming. We are not far from self-driving cars, which considering the skills and attention span of the modern driver, will be a good thing. Technology is moving forward, with or without us. Why should boating be any different.

How far are we from networking radar from different locations, including signals from ships? How is XM weather much different than what we are talking about here? All of these new things can provide users with much greater safety at a fraction of the cost. Do you not see the benefits of that? My phone has been a lot more reliable than my old chart plotter. And I don't have thousands to drop into a boat I take out 4-5 times a year.

You still have the freedom of choice. If you don't want to include this stuff on your boat, you have the right to pass on it. But one shouldn't frown on others that want to augment the information available to make better decisions while under way.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:19   #28
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

I don't want others judging my CPA based on old data and I don't want a new generation of sailors thinking that I can see their internet reported position.

I'd rather them understanding that if they want to make sure they are visible then they do it the right way with an AIS transponder.

Bad data is far more dangerous than no data




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Old 07-07-2015, 05:47   #29
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

His88

What you dont seem to understand is that internet AIS is not current.

Its not uptodate.

Its old information

Its not new


I just took this screenshot, attached, of my boats internet AIS that I have on my website. Please have a look at the Time of Last Report.

Did you read it? How long ago was it?

This time delay is normal. If it were not normal I would be in a deadset panic that my equipment has failed.

So what earthly use is it except to know in a very general term that my boat WAS somewhere some time ago.

Want to see if I just lied to you? Check it "live" Our Life At Sea - World wide Ship Positions AIS Location

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Old 07-07-2015, 06:03   #30
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Re: Live AIS Via Internet

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I don't want others judging my CPA based on old data and I don't want a new generation of sailors thinking that I can see their internet reported position.

I'd rather them understanding that if they want to make sure they are visible then they do it the right way with an AIS transponder.

Bad data is far more dangerous than no data



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If you have no concept of using multiple sources of data to confirm and provide an overall view of what is going on, you would be correct. If you use a modest dose of common sense, old data is not bad data.

No doubt a full transciever would be best but they are expensive, they require an installaiton and require a power supply. We may get there at some point but we aren't there, so this would be a simple alternative to provide an improvement over no data.

This is like saying you shouldn't use electronic charting because they might be out of date...of course when I see the little boat icon driving down the beach, I am smart enough to realize the GPS and chart datum aren't lining up and make adjustments to account for it. To go back to paper charts or worse no charts in congested complicated areas is not a better option.
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