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Old 21-10-2011, 16:36   #976
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
Guys,

Paper charts have been passed around from person to person forever. These charts are no different, not only will they be downloaded, they will also be passed around on DVDs. Thus, any terms of use check boxes on a download site are going to be largely irrelevant. IMHO, all that is needed is a "not for navigation" watermark. That is all I have ever seen on any non-original or historical chart. This is the "common practice" for distributing this class of charts. So, please, don't drive yourself crazy thinking you need to do more then what is the common practice.

And, remember the open source mantra -- release early, release often.

These charts are no different, except that _we_ made them available where they didn't exist before.

I'm not driving myself crazy, I'm just telling you the "common practice" in the open source community. You include a license when you give your stuff away, because just giving it away without a license has implicit consequences that can come back and haunt you.

Implied warranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 21-10-2011, 17:39   #977
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

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Originally Posted by recri View Post
These charts are no different, except that _we_ made them available where they didn't exist before.

I'm not driving myself crazy, I'm just telling you the "common practice" in the open source community. You include a license when you give your stuff away, because just giving it away without a license has implicit consequences that can come back and haunt you.

Implied warranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry rec,

But your reference to "implied warranty" addresses the selling of a product or real property. It also clearly states that a phrase such as "as is" or "with all faults" can be used as a disclaimer of the implied warranty. So, unless you are planning to sell this charts, a disclaimer something like "not for navigation" should be sufficient.

BTW, if you want to release these charts under an open source license, you might want to consider using a license that will allow someone to take them closed source. The rational for allowing someone to takes the charts closed source and sells them is that they will most likely need to maintain, enhance, and warranty them to justify their cost.

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Old 23-10-2011, 03:26   #978
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

There were 4 charts left in the category "Non Rectangular", 14202,44281,93647 and 97042. I have done these and they are now all "..special PLYs needed".

Some food for thought regarding marking our charts "Not for Navigation". Have a look at one of the few, legally published, pictures of a British Admiralty raster chart, and how they handle the issue.


Thomas
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Old 23-10-2011, 04:21   #979
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Thomas,

you will probably agree that it is just bizarre:

obviously this chart - as the ones we are working with in this project

- are intended to be used for navigation
- for route planing
- for armchair sailing

and not just for decoration or contemplation.

What a nonsense is all this..... (in the strict meaning of this word)

Hubert
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Old 23-10-2011, 04:25   #980
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Such a simple warning seems sufficient tonme

But of course it would be hidden if chart quilting is on. I don't think and verbose warning and disclaimer would be 100% watertight in a court. I think some of the commercial disclaimers have been challenged and rejected in US courts. In the the UK we have a term unfair conditions that is used in court when warning notices are cited as absolving a supplier of blame. I think more is less in this case the more you say the mare lawyers will imply want you did not say or did not say correctly.

Regards
B
Richard

Below is a disclaimer for plan2mav I think
you may see the point when did you last read a full terms and conditions before clicking accept.



JEPPESEN® MOBILE PLAN2NAV APPLICATION
End User License Agreement (EULA)

Last Revised: August 9, 2011

PLEASE READ THIS EULA CAREFULLY. IT CONSTITUTES A BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND JEPPESEN MARINE, INC. AND JEPPESEN ITALIA S.r.l. (JEPPESEN MARINE INC. AND JEPPESEN ITALIA S.r.l. ARE HEREINAFTER REFERRED TO COLLECTIVELY AS “JEPPESEN” FOR THE USE OF THIS APPLICATION AND ALL DATA CONTAINED WITHIN THIS APPLICATION (APPLICATION AND DATA ARE HEREINAFTER REFERRED TO COLLECTIVELY AS ”APPLICATION&rdquo. YOUR USE OF THIS APPLICATION IS SUBJECT TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS EULA. BY CLICKING THE ”ACCEPT” BUTTON OR USING THIS APPLICATION, YOU AGREE TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY ALL TERMS AND CONDITIONS CONTAINED IN THIS EULA.

JEPPESEN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE OR MODIFY ANY OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS EULA AT ANY TIME BY POSTING THE CHANGES IN THIS APPLICATION. THE MOST CURRENT VERSION OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAN BE REVIEWED BY GOING TO “SETTINGS” WITHIN THIS APPLICATION THEN TO “LEGAL”. YOU SHOULD VISIT THIS LOCATION EVERY TIME YOU USE THE APPLICATION TO REVIEW THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS. ANY CHANGES OR MODIFICATIONS TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS WILL BE EFFECTIVE ON THE DATE THE CHANGE OR MODIFICATION IS MADE. YOUR USE OF THIS APPLICATION FOLLOWING THE DATE OF ANY CHANGES OR MODIFICATIONS WILL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AS REVISED. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE REVISED TERMS AND CONDITIONS, THEN YOU MUST STOP USING THIS APPLICATION.

1. OWNERSHIP. This Application contains the valuable proprietary content of Jeppesen and its licensors and is protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws and treaties. Jeppesen and its licensors retain all right, title and interest in the copyrights, patents, trade secrets, trademarks and other intellectual property rights pertaining to this Application. This Application is licensed, not sold to You, and You agree not to use this Application except in its intended manner in accordance with the terms of this EULA.

2. LICENSE USE AND RESTRICTIONS ON USE. For each license, You may install this Application on one mobile computing device. This Application may be used strictly as a supplement to official navigation information and traditional navigation techniques and not as the sole or primary method of navigation or for any other purpose whatsoever. IN ADDITION, YOU MUST PAY ATTENTION TO SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS AND SITUATIONS AND THIS APPLICATION MAY NOT BE USED WHERE SUCH USE MIGHT INTERFERE WITH THE SAFE OPERATION OF ANY WATERCRAFT. THIS APPLICATION IS INTENDED FOR RECREATIONAL USE ONLY. USE OF THIS APPLICATION BY SOLAS (SAFETY OF LIFE AT SEA) CLASS, COMMERCIAL OR MILITARY WATERCRAFT OR AS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

You shall not: (a) copy, reproduce, or publish this Application or any portion thereof; (b) distribute copies of this Application or accompanying materials to others; (c) modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, or decompile this Application or create derivative works based on this Application; (d) modify, adapt, translate, or create derivative works based on the printed, electronic, or written materials; (e) assign, rent, lend, or sublease this Application; or (f) sell or transfer this Application.

3. TERMINATION. This EULA will automatically terminate if You fail to comply with any term of this EULA or any applicable law.

4. NO WARRANTY AND DISCLAIMER. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THIS APPLICATION IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, SAFETY, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH YOU. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THIS APPLICATION IS PROVIDED ”AS IS” AND ”AS AVAILABLE,”+ WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. JEPPESEN HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL REPRESENTATIONS, WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH RESPECT TO THIS APPLICATION, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR ARISING BY LAW, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. JEPPESEN DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN THIS APPLICATION WILL BE ACCURATE OR MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT THE OPERATION OF THIS APPLICATION WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THIS APPLICATION WILL BE CORRECTED. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION, GUIDELINES OR ADVICE GIVEN BY JEPPESEN OR ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY. YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS APPLICATION AND RELATED SERVICES ARE NOT INTENDED AS OR SUITABLE FOR USE IN SITUATIONS OR ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THE FAILURE OR TIME DELAYS OF, OR ERRORS OR INACCURACIES IN THE CONTENT, DATA OR INFORMATION PROVIDED BY THIS APPLICATION OR SERVICES COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION NAUTICAL NAVIGATION OR VESSEL TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS.

LOCATION DATA PROVIDED BY THIS APPLICATION OR ANY SERVICES ARE FOR SITUATIONAL AWARENESS PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT INTENDED FOR NAUTICAL NAVIGATION AND NOT INTENDED TO BE RELIED UPON IN SITUATIONS WHERE PRECISE LOCATION INFORMATION IS NEEDED OR WHERE ERRONEOUS, INACCURATE, TIME-DELAYED OR INCOMPLETE LOCATION DATA COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, PROPERTY OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, OR VIOLATION OF LAWS OR ANY OTHER APPLICABLE MARITIME REGULATIONS. JEPPESEN DOES NOT WARRANT THE AVAILABILITY, ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS, RELIABILITY, OR TIMELINESS OF LOCATION DATA OR ANY OTHER DATA DISPLAYED BY THIS APPLICATION OR SERVICES. USE OF THIS LOCATION DATA IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK.

NAUTICAL NAVIGATION IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY AND SHOULD ONLY BE ENGAGED IN BY PERSONS WITH ADEQUATE TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE.
THIS APPLICATION MAY NOT CONTAIN ALL NAUTICAL NAVIGATION DATA NEEDED FOR SAFE NAUTICAL NAVIGATION. ONLY CURRENT OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CHARTS AND NOTICES TO MARINERS CONTAIN ALL INFORMATION NEEDED FOR SAFE NAUTICAL NAVIGATION.
THIS APPLICATION IS NOT ADEQUATE AS A PRIMARY MEANS OF NAVIGATION, AND SHOULD BE USED ONLY AS A SUPPLEMENT TO OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CHARTS AND TRADITIONAL NAVIGATION METHODS TO AID IN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS OF THE SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS.
THIS APPLICATION IS DERIVED, IN PART, FROM DATA PROVIDED WITH THE PERMISSION OF VARIOUS NATIONAL HYDROGRAPHIC OFFICES AND OTHER THIRD PARTY SOURCES (THE “LICENSORS&rdquo. JEPPESEN IS AN AUTHORISED USER AND LICENSEE OF THIS DATA UNDER SEPARATE AGREEMENTS WITH THE LICENSORS. ALL RIGHTS ARE RESERVED BY THE RESPECTIVE LICENSORS AND COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS APPLY. INFORMATION ABOUT THE SOURCE OF A SPECIFIC NAUTICAL CHART MAY BE VIEWED BY CHOOSING “DETAILS / DATA SOURCE” IN THE NAVIGATION SYSTEM.
JEPPESEN IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR DEFECTS IN THIS APPLICATON DUE TO INCORRECT OR MISSING INFORMATION FROM THESE LICENSORS OR OTHER THIRD PARTY SOURCES.
NO LICENSOR HAS VERIFIED THIS APPLICATION AND NO LICENSOR ACCEPTS ANY LIABILITY FOR THE ACCURACY OF THIS APPLICATION OR FOR ANY MODIFICATIONS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN MADE TO THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED. FURTHERMORE, NO LICENSOR WARRANTS THAT THE DATA MEETS ANY REGULATIONS AS AN APPROPRIATE PRODUCT FOR NAVIGATION OR THAT IT CONTAINS THE MOST CURRENT HYDROGRAPHIC INFORMATION AVAILABLE.

5. LIMITATION ON LIABILITY.
TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL JEPPESEN BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, LOSS OF DATA, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION OR ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES, ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO YOUR USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE APPLICATION, HOWEVER CAUSED, REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY OF LIABILITY (CONTRACT, BREACH OF WARRANTY, TORT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE) AND EVEN IF JEPPESEN HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
IN NO EVENT SHALL JEPPESEN’S TOTAL LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, WARRANTY, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE, WHETHER ACTIVE, PASSIVE OR IMPUTED), PRODUCT LIABILITY, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHER THEORY, ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE APPLICATION EXCEED TWO HUNDRED FIFTY DOLLARS (U.S. $250.00). THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS WILL APPLY EVEN IF THE ABOVE STATED REMEDY FAILS OF ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE.
Some states and jurisdictions do not allow limitations on direct, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, so the above limitations or exclusions may not apply to You.

If a court of competent jurisdiction determines that relevant laws in force may imply warranties and liabilities which cannot be excluded or limited or which can only partly be excluded or limited, then the limit on Jeppesen’s liability set forth in this Section will apply to the fullest extent permitted by law. If Jeppesen cannot exclude or limit a warranty or liability implied by law, this EULA will be read and construed subject to such provisions of law.

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9. GOVERNING LAW. This EULA will be interpreted under and governed by the laws of the State of Colorado, U.S.A. without recourse to choice of law statutes or principles that would otherwise result in the application of the law of any other jurisdiction to this EULA. The United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods will not apply to this EULA.
10. CONFLICTING DOCUMENTS. In the event You issue a purchase order for Your request of the Application, the terms and conditions therewith are hereby rejected by Jeppesen and this EULA will govern and take precedence over all other terms and conditions contained on or referenced by such purchase order.

When You download or use the Application on any Apple® operating system, the following terms apply and You agree as follows:

a. Acknowledgement: The parties acknowledge that this EULA is concluded solely between such parties, and not with Apple, and Jeppesen, not Apple, is solely responsible for the Application and the content thereof. You further acknowledge that the usage rules for the Application are subject to any additional restrictions set forth in the Usage Rules for the Apple App Store Terms of Service as of the date You download the Application, and in the event of any conflict, the Usage Rules in the App Store shall govern if they are more restrictive.
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Old 23-10-2011, 04:39   #981
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

This license discussion is kinda silly.

You can only license intellectual property which you have created and is, thus, yours.

Whilst the job of converting these maps is hard work, no one here can realistically say that they have "created" the underlying maps. At best all anyone can claim is that the re-formatting is their "creation" ... like the typesetting of a book is protected separately (as IP) from the text.

So releasing these maps "under license" of any type is not possible, and in fact may well piss of the US Govt, who actually own the underlying IP and may have issues with someone claiming it is theirs to re-license (even if it is a public license).

Secondly, if the maps are given away free, "for no consideration", and there is no single person or central entity controlling their compilation, release, or distribution, then there can be no warranty or liability (Do you think wikipedia is liable for any mis-information???). Of course, if anyone were to try to sell them, that is a different matter ... but as a crowdsourced internet thing there are no liability or warranty issues to speak of.

As an IP lawyer, this is my 2c.
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Old 23-10-2011, 04:41   #982
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Hi Richard,

my intention was to talk about mental health - stating just the opposite of the one you are doing -, not about lawyers.

Kind regards

Hubert

Btw.: yes, a big part if not all EULAs have failed ones examined under the different European legislations. But that does not stop the BS (same as the disclaimers in e-mail)
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Old 23-10-2011, 04:53   #983
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Just. To add my 2p worth (UK)

We seem happy to issue installable opencpn with a simple disclaimer. Surely an error in opencpn is just and likely to put somebody on the the litigation rocks as is an error in the charts we are calibrating.

Regards

Richard
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Old 23-10-2011, 05:18   #984
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

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Originally Posted by bcn View Post
Thomas,

you will probably agree that it is just bizarre:

obviously this chart - as the ones we are working with in this project

- are intended to be used for navigation
- for route planing
- for armchair sailing

and not just for decoration or contemplation.

What a nonsense is all this..... (in the strict meaning of this word)

Hubert

Yes of course I agree.
I don't hesitate to use, for example a postcard with an aerial picture of an Island, as piece of information in navigation. That is what any chart is, one source of information, but there is much more. Well, I could go on .....
On the other hand, I can see a need for a simple warning, as there are far to many "navigators" that are not aware of the accuracy and limitations of charts and the surveys they are based on. This is apparent from many threads on this forum.
It should be enough to repeat the warning from NGA and print a general note in the margin, in BA fashion. Note that NGA has no watermark warning on the charts on their website.
There is no foolproof way to stop an "innovative" idiot to abuse available navigational information, and I don't think that we should let the paranoia of the US legal system affect us to much. If anything, we should check the legal implications in the countries where the chart servers are located.

Thomas
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Old 23-10-2011, 07:28   #985
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

That is something I would sign.

So let us put a check mark on this issue and "back to work"!

- release (and maintenance) process (QA is in this basket)
- grouping and hosting charts (curiosity: to how many GByte do the generated .kap sum up to now?)
- and tackling the rest of the charts

Hubert
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Old 23-10-2011, 08:58   #986
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jannw View Post
This license discussion is kinda silly.

You can only license intellectual property which you have created and is, thus, yours.

Whilst the job of converting these maps is hard work, no one here can realistically say that they have "created" the underlying maps. At best all anyone can claim is that the re-formatting is their "creation" ... like the typesetting of a book is protected separately (as IP) from the text.

So releasing these maps "under license" of any type is not possible, and in fact may well piss of the US Govt, who actually own the underlying IP and may have issues with someone claiming it is theirs to re-license (even if it is a public license).

Secondly, if the maps are given away free, "for no consideration", and there is no single person or central entity controlling their compilation, release, or distribution, then there can be no warranty or liability (Do you think wikipedia is liable for any mis-information???). Of course, if anyone were to try to sell them, that is a different matter ... but as a crowdsourced internet thing there are no liability or warranty issues to speak of.

As an IP lawyer, this is my 2c.
Even though the product originates from a public domain product, the additional work done in the calibration is definitely something that could be protected as IP if someone wanted to. The license must be clear that it is not the image that is being licensed, but the additional work.

As far as the liability issue goes, I don't think I'll take any internet advice that says just because there is a large number of people involved, that nobody would try to sue "all those rich yacht people on that forum" if they, while on autopilot, following a course they plotted on one of these charts, ran their pretty little express cruiser into a well marked reef in broad daylight while they were down below taking a "break" with their secretary.

I think that at the very least, a watermark on the chart saying "NOT FOR NAVIGATION" is warranted. I also think a printed disclaimer on the website is a good idea.

-dan
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Old 23-10-2011, 11:30   #987
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

I'm just one of those dumb engineers, but at least from an engineering standpoint, the only part of these charts that the group could be held responsible for is the download/reconstruction to jpeg, the conversion to KAP, and the calibration to WGS. It is conceivable that two or more tiles could get scrambled during reconstruction and/or the corner lat/long's incorrectly entered, and, the error(s) is not caught during verification. I don't care how many levels of verification you go through there will always be a non-zero probability of error. Regardless of that, I would think that placing a short description of the process used to build the charts and a disclaimer of their accuracy on the home page of the hosting website should be sufficient. I would also include the following statement from the Jeppensen EULA (as quoted above): "NAUTICAL NAVIGATION IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY AND SHOULD ONLY BE ENGAGED IN BY PERSONS WITH ADEQUATE TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE."
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Old 23-10-2011, 12:51   #988
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacust View Post
I think that at the very least, a watermark on the chart saying "NOT FOR NAVIGATION" is warranted. I also think a printed disclaimer on the website is a good idea.

-dan
I agree.

Perhaps we should ask Dave how best to implement this so that there is only one water mark displayed when in quilting mode. And, it would also be nice if the watermark is displayed in a consistent size. Now seems the right time to resolve this issue before the first release.

Since I am not directly involved in this work, I shall defer to those who are to contact Dave if this seems like the way to go.

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Old 23-10-2011, 14:04   #989
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
I agree.

Perhaps we should ask Dave how best to implement this so that there is only one water mark displayed when in quilting mode. And, it would also be nice if the watermark is displayed in a consistent size. Now seems the right time to resolve this issue before the first release.

Since I am not directly involved in this work, I shall defer to those who are to contact Dave if this seems like the way to go.

..it's really not that bad on the chart...
Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

and
Click image for larger version

Name:	recife copy.jpg
Views:	118
Size:	415.6 KB
ID:	32867

you can see the soundings through em .Transparent,right?I don't know what kind of nuisance it'd be to batch the jpegs with one,but easier than programming??probably bigger than this is better ....anyways,if we're all going to jail,we want Dave on the outside to bail us out...
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Old 23-10-2011, 14:28   #990
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Re: Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

..Richard,there's NO WAY I'm reading that! (Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts)
You are right though...a lawyer wrote it to employ fellow lawyers.I think the message on the header sprinkled liberally around is plenty good as a disclaimer...also same somewhere with a checkbox "I have read and understand".
...more on watermark in post Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts above...putting a wig on here....
Entered as evidence,it's reasonable to accept it as a precedent.
but I add this argument:
Note that there is no quilting involved or possible with an internet picture while ours WILL be quilted..nay-are INTENDED to be quilted and "intend" therefore to cut that watermark off...
I rest my case ....
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