Charts II: NGA - 2700 Charts

[recri]

Originally Posted by Viking Sailor

Guys,

Paper charts have been passed around from person to person forever. These charts are no different, not only will they be downloaded, they will also be passed around on DVDs. Thus, any terms of use check boxes on a download site are going to be largely irrelevant. IMHO, all that is needed is a "not for navigation" watermark. That is all I have ever seen on any non-original or historical chart. This is the "common practice" for distributing this class of charts. So, please, don't drive yourself crazy thinking you need to do more then what is the common practice.

And, remember the open source mantra -- release early, release often.

These charts are no different, except that _we_ made them available where they didn't exist before.

I'm not driving myself crazy, I'm just telling you the "common practice" in the open source community. You include a license when you give your stuff away, because just giving it away without a license has implicit consequences that can come back and haunt you.

Implied warranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Viking Sailor]

Originally Posted by recri

These charts are no different, except that _we_ made them available where they didn't exist before.

I'm not driving myself crazy, I'm just telling you the "common practice" in the open source community. You include a license when you give your stuff away, because just giving it away without a license has implicit consequences that can come back and haunt you.

Implied warranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry rec,

But your reference to "implied warranty" addresses the selling of a product or real property. It also clearly states that a phrase such as "as is" or "with all faults" can be used as a disclaimer of the implied warranty. So, unless you are planning to sell this charts, a disclaimer something like "not for navigation" should be sufficient.

BTW, if you want to release these charts under an open source license, you might want to consider using a license that will allow someone to take them closed source. The rational for allowing someone to takes the charts closed source and sells them is that they will most likely need to maintain, enhance, and warranty them to justify their cost.

[cagney]

There were 4 charts left in the category "Non Rectangular", 14202,44281,93647 and 97042. I have done these and they are now all "..special PLYs needed".

Some food for thought regarding marking our charts "Not for Navigation". Have a look at one of the few, legally published, pictures of a British Admiralty raster chart, and how they handle the issue.


Thomas

[bcn]

Thomas,

you will probably agree that it is just bizarre:

obviously this chart - as the ones we are working with in this project

- are intended to be used for navigation
- for route planing
- for armchair sailing

and not just for decoration or contemplation.

What a nonsense is all this..... (in the strict meaning of this word)

Hubert

[r.fairman]

Such a simple warning seems sufficient tonme

But of course it would be hidden if chart quilting is on. I don't think and verbose warning and disclaimer would be 100% watertight in a court. I think some of the commercial disclaimers have been challenged and rejected in US courts. In the the UK we have a term unfair conditions that is used in court when warning notices are cited as absolving a supplier of blame. I think more is less in this case the more you say the mare lawyers will imply want you did not say or did not say correctly.

Regards
B
Richard

Below is a disclaimer for plan2mav I think
you may see the point when did you last read a full terms and conditions before clicking accept.



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[jannw]

This license discussion is kinda silly.

You can only license intellectual property which you have created and is, thus, yours.

Whilst the job of converting these maps is hard work, no one here can realistically say that they have "created" the underlying maps. At best all anyone can claim is that the re-formatting is their "creation" ... like the typesetting of a book is protected separately (as IP) from the text.

So releasing these maps "under license" of any type is not possible, and in fact may well piss of the US Govt, who actually own the underlying IP and may have issues with someone claiming it is theirs to re-license (even if it is a public license).

Secondly, if the maps are given away free, "for no consideration", and there is no single person or central entity controlling their compilation, release, or distribution, then there can be no warranty or liability (Do you think wikipedia is liable for any mis-information???). Of course, if anyone were to try to sell them, that is a different matter ... but as a crowdsourced internet thing there are no liability or warranty issues to speak of.

As an IP lawyer, this is my 2c.

[bcn]

Hi Richard,

my intention was to talk about mental health - stating just the opposite of the one you are doing -, not about lawyers.

Kind regards

Hubert

Btw.: yes, a big part if not all EULAs have failed ones examined under the different European legislations. But that does not stop the BS (same as the disclaimers in e-mail)

[r.fairman]

Just. To add my 2p worth (UK)

We seem happy to issue installable opencpn with a simple disclaimer. Surely an error in opencpn is just and likely to put somebody on the the litigation rocks as is an error in the charts we are calibrating.

Regards

Richard

[cagney]

Originally Posted by bcn

Thomas,

you will probably agree that it is just bizarre:

obviously this chart - as the ones we are working with in this project

- are intended to be used for navigation
- for route planing
- for armchair sailing

and not just for decoration or contemplation.

What a nonsense is all this..... (in the strict meaning of this word)

Hubert

Yes of course I agree.
I don't hesitate to use, for example a postcard with an aerial picture of an Island, as piece of information in navigation. That is what any chart is, one source of information, but there is much more. Well, I could go on .....
On the other hand, I can see a need for a simple warning, as there are far to many "navigators" that are not aware of the accuracy and limitations of charts and the surveys they are based on. This is apparent from many threads on this forum.
It should be enough to repeat the warning from NGA and print a general note in the margin, in BA fashion. Note that NGA has no watermark warning on the charts on their website.
There is no foolproof way to stop an "innovative" idiot to abuse available navigational information, and I don't think that we should let the paranoia of the US legal system affect us to much. If anything, we should check the legal implications in the countries where the chart servers are located.

Thomas

[bcn]

That is something I would sign.

So let us put a check mark on this issue and "back to work"!

- release (and maintenance) process (QA is in this basket)
- grouping and hosting charts (curiosity: to how many GByte do the generated .kap sum up to now?)
- and tackling the rest of the charts

Hubert

[dacust]

Originally Posted by jannw

This license discussion is kinda silly.

You can only license intellectual property which you have created and is, thus, yours.

Whilst the job of converting these maps is hard work, no one here can realistically say that they have "created" the underlying maps. At best all anyone can claim is that the re-formatting is their "creation" ... like the typesetting of a book is protected separately (as IP) from the text.

So releasing these maps "under license" of any type is not possible, and in fact may well piss of the US Govt, who actually own the underlying IP and may have issues with someone claiming it is theirs to re-license (even if it is a public license).

Secondly, if the maps are given away free, "for no consideration", and there is no single person or central entity controlling their compilation, release, or distribution, then there can be no warranty or liability (Do you think wikipedia is liable for any mis-information???). Of course, if anyone were to try to sell them, that is a different matter ... but as a crowdsourced internet thing there are no liability or warranty issues to speak of.

As an IP lawyer, this is my 2c.

Even though the product originates from a public domain product, the additional work done in the calibration is definitely something that could be protected as IP if someone wanted to. The license must be clear that it is not the image that is being licensed, but the additional work.

As far as the liability issue goes, I don't think I'll take any internet advice that says just because there is a large number of people involved, that nobody would try to sue "all those rich yacht people on that forum" if they, while on autopilot, following a course they plotted on one of these charts, ran their pretty little express cruiser into a well marked reef in broad daylight while they were down below taking a "break" with their secretary.

I think that at the very least, a watermark on the chart saying "NOT FOR NAVIGATION" is warranted. I also think a printed disclaimer on the website is a good idea.

-dan

[Joe_Crawford]

I'm just one of those dumb engineers, but at least from an engineering standpoint, the only part of these charts that the group could be held responsible for is the download/reconstruction to jpeg, the conversion to KAP, and the calibration to WGS. It is conceivable that two or more tiles could get scrambled during reconstruction and/or the corner lat/long's incorrectly entered, and, the error(s) is not caught during verification. I don't care how many levels of verification you go through there will always be a non-zero probability of error. Regardless of that, I would think that placing a short description of the process used to build the charts and a disclaimer of their accuracy on the home page of the hosting website should be sufficient. I would also include the following statement from the Jeppensen EULA (as quoted above): "NAUTICAL NAVIGATION IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY AND SHOULD ONLY BE ENGAGED IN BY PERSONS WITH ADEQUATE TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE."

[Viking Sailor]

Originally Posted by dacust

I think that at the very least, a watermark on the chart saying "NOT FOR NAVIGATION" is warranted. I also think a printed disclaimer on the website is a good idea.

-dan

I agree.

Perhaps we should ask Dave how best to implement this so that there is only one water mark displayed when in quilting mode. And, it would also be nice if the watermark is displayed in a consistent size. Now seems the right time to resolve this issue before the first release.

Since I am not directly involved in this work, I shall defer to those who are to contact Dave if this seems like the way to go.

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by Viking Sailor

I agree.

Perhaps we should ask Dave how best to implement this so that there is only one water mark displayed when in quilting mode. And, it would also be nice if the watermark is displayed in a consistent size. Now seems the right time to resolve this issue before the first release.

Since I am not directly involved in this work, I shall defer to those who are to contact Dave if this seems like the way to go.

..it's really not that bad on the chart...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post793400

and


you can see the soundings through em .Transparent,right?I don't know what kind of nuisance it'd be to batch the jpegs with one,but easier than programming??probably bigger than this is better ....anyways,if we're all going to jail,we want Dave on the outside to bail us out...

[HappySeagull]

..Richard,there's NO WAY I'm reading that! (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post802120)
You are right though...a lawyer wrote it to employ fellow lawyers.I think the message on the header sprinkled liberally around is plenty good as a disclaimer...also same somewhere with a checkbox "I have read and understand".
...more on watermark in post http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post802110 above...putting a wig on here....
Entered as evidence,it's reasonable to accept it as a precedent.
but I add this argument:
Note that there is no quilting involved or possible with an internet picture while ours WILL be quilted..nay-are INTENDED to be quilted and "intend" therefore to cut that watermark off...
I rest my case ....