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Old 24-10-2018, 14:23   #1
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Yet another wannabe

I have been browsing this forum quite often recently and found a ton of useful information, so first of all thank you to all the members of The forum for providing it.

While I was lurking for quite some time I finally registered and I hope to get even more advice on some of my questions.

Let me first provide some background:
Years ago I came across books about people sailing around the world, not for competition, just for fun and adventure. Often these were families on tiny boats who sailed to exotic places. It got me fascinated and I started sailing, acquired the certificates available to do inland and offshore sailing and motoring. You probably already guessed I'm from Europe and we have quite some regulations on everything. So while I was officially certified to sail, there wasn't much opportunities to actually do do. I live quite far from the sea. Still I did some cabin charter from time to time to not completely lose my sailing knowledge. The dream was still there but somewhat suppressed by working etc. Recently it returned, maybe Midlife-Crisis. Anyway, through some fortunate and unexpected events I don't want to go into detail about, I am now in the fortunate position of not needing to have a job anymore with quite some excess money to spend for fun. I mention this purely to make it clear that there's no need to discuss finances or exclude options because they are expensive or overpriced, though I don't plan on waisting money either.
So what I basically wanted to say is that I finally can afford to make my dream come true and go cruising. I don't plan on full time cruising, more half time with some time in between at home I'm my house or doing some land based travel.

With this background I'm now looking for information, data, advice on a wide variety of things. I have read through quite some threads here and after starting with my questions I expect quite some responses that what I am asking is not what I should be asking and that there are more important questions to ask and answer first. And I know and I also know that those responses are right. However there is a lot of information available on those important topics and I have read some of it, I will read even more. What I will be asking here are more questions on topics I didn't find much information about. There are so many things in my head and I need to organize them into something that fits for me and that includes those side topics. Again, while I did a lot of reading here I don't think I found everything available, so if you think some questions are already answered somewhere I'm also grateful if youjust provide the link.

I started some time ago with researching what I need and want to go cruising. And of course one of the fundamental items is a boat :-)
I never bought a boat before and I still need to do a lot of investigation before I buy one. I will probably visit boat shows, contact vendors, try to actually sail the model, etc. But before I want to narrow it down a little. I did search the web, look at vendors pages, watched YouTube videos of boats (while searching for boats I came across the various cruising YouTube channels, and follow some, but they are not the reason I want to do this). So I have come up with some must haves for me. You might not agree and I know there are other more important aspects a boat must fullfil and I'm not excluding those, but I also want those special wishes.

So what am I looking for:
I want a sailing catamaran
I want want it big and comfortable
I still want to be able to sail it alone with nobody else on board for day sails or overnight (1) passages but will invite and/or hire crew for longer passages
I want an owner version
I want at least 3 other cabins
I'm a tech guy, I want all the available "toys" and automation
I still want it to be manageable if all the toys fail
I would love to go fully electrical but after reading here and elsewhere, that's not yet practical, but maybe diesel hybrid is possible
I want high quality and customization
I want to boat to still be sailing well and able to circumnavigate in it.
I'm willing to spend the money necessary
and last but not least
I really want a forward door and sitting area

The Leopards 45 and 50 have the forward door and sitting area but they have very view customization options.
Sunreef 50 and 60 have this also, but in the videos and pictures the 60 looks like it is offering less cockpit and saloon space than the Leopard 50
I saw some vague pictures of a Discovery 50 that also might offer the forward door.

Are there any others out there (I don't really want to go above 60ft)?

I understand there are possibilities to add/change stuff after (in parallel to?) the manufacturer, but I'm not sure how/where to find those service providers. Would that all be combined in one contract with a seller? I think I would probably prefer as much of the customization done as part of the build, so it's done right from the start.

The website of Leopard and even less the Sunreef one provide much specification. I want to know about bridgedeck clearance, storage space, accessibility of wiring, pipes, etc. Is the only way to go to some boat show where the model ist on display?

What do you think of diesel hybrid like https://www.volvopenta.com/marineleisure/en-en/news/2018/jun/volvo-penta-unveils-hybrid-marine-propulsion-concept.html or http://www.steyr-motors.com/marine-diesel-engines/marine/the-steyr-hds-hybrid-drive-system/ ?
Is this available and in use anywhere?
How much motor power would you need for boats like the ones above to go fast when needed and a good cruising speed?

Since I want to be able to sail alone what do you think about helpers like furling mains, joystick controls etc. What are helpers I could consider (again, they are for convenience and short trips, for everything else there will be free to do this manually in case of failures of the automated helpers.

What do you think of flybridges?
Where is the better position of the helm?
Having a platform that can carry the dinghy vs davits?

What about security? I know that the Happy Together boat has an alarm system. Are they the only ones? What are other options (no guns or other leathal weapons or a discussion about them)?
I know that the risk of pirate attack is small but my boat will probably be one of the fancier more attractive ones to plunder. What about LARD
https://science.howstuffworks.com/lrad.htm ? Or water cannons? Are they possible on boats? Do you think they could help? I find the idea of them interesting since they would allow close contact with fishermen and are directed and immediate enough to respond if somebody draws a gun. Probably I'm reading to many horror stories.

I have loads of additional questions but this post is already too long, so I'll keep them for now.

Thanks for reading this far and I'm looking forward to hear your opinion and your help in finding me the perfect ;-) boat

Matt
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Old 25-10-2018, 06:33   #2
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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I have loads of additional questions but this post is already too long,
I am glad you said that, rather than me saying it.

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Originally Posted by exploringmatt View Post
Thanks for reading this far and I'm looking forward to hear your opinion and your help in finding me the perfect ;-) boat
Matt
Bad news I am afraid, there is no perfect boat and if you try to meet your list of 'wants' you will never buy a boat. I suggest you buy something cheap and go sailing for two years. Then you will know what you actually, need not what you think you might want, there is a huge difference. Manufacturers and chandlers will of course be quite happy to lighten your load and wallet helping you choose stuff you will regret later when you have more experience.

If you are going single handed then 35ft max to start with would be my suggestion, especially in European or med waters.

Welcome to CF btw.
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Old 25-10-2018, 09:23   #3
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Re: Yet another wannabe

Sounds like you really need to hit up a boat show.
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Old 25-10-2018, 09:55   #4
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Re: Yet another wannabe

For some reason you reminded me of Hugh Howey, who after selling a sh*t-ton of books bought his ultimate cruising boat..

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Old 25-10-2018, 13:00   #5
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Re: Yet another wannabe

Thanks for answering!

I know it sounds weird and that my questions are all over the place. That's why I posted here to get it sorted out.

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Sounds like you really need to hit up a boat show.
Yep, I agree and I plan to. At the moment though that will probably be like a kid in a toy store and I'd like to prepare a little so that I at least know what boats I want to see and make sure that some of them are displayed at the show and so on.

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For some reason you reminded me of Hugh Howey, who after selling a sh*t-ton of books bought his ultimate cruising boat..
Definitely similar, though without books and a different taste in boats.


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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Bad news I am afraid, there is no perfect boat and if you try to meet your list of 'wants' you will never buy a boat.
I know, that's why I put the smiley there. Somewhere I read a boat is always a compromise and while I know that I can't get everything, I still want to see how close I can get and then compromise on the rest.

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I suggest you buy something cheap and go sailing for two years.
While sailing will be a substantial part, it's mostly the going places part that interests me. Basically being abel to visit interesting places while bringing my own bed and living room and transportation and ...

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If you are going single handed then 35ft max to start with would be my suggestion, especially in European or med waters.
Single handed only for short and easy trips, I like to be on my own from time to time. So it should be possible but it's not the main usage. And the goal ist to go around the world.

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Welcome to CF btw.
Thanks
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Old 26-10-2018, 03:59   #6
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Re: Yet another wannabe

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Matt.
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Old 26-10-2018, 06:28   #7
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Re: Yet another wannabe

You can do it. Keep it simple to start. Buy a 10-12 meter beneteau or jeanneau and sail from port to port in good weather. When you feel ready you can sail further and in questionable weather. Then you will also know what you want in a long term boat.
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Old 26-10-2018, 06:34   #8
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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Thanks for reading this far and I'm looking forward to hear your opinion and your help in finding me the perfect ;-) boat

Matt
I skipped through reading the long post and just got the highlights. You want a LOT of boat. It's your money, spend as you what to. Go to yatchworld.com and you can find your boat in minutes. Other than than that you are not going to get the hoped for approval from this forum IMO
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Old 26-10-2018, 11:36   #9
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Matt.
Thanks for the welcome!

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I skipped through reading the long post and just got the highlights. You want a LOT of boat. It's your money, spend as you what to. Go to yatchworld.com and you can find your boat in minutes. Other than than that you are not going to get the hoped for approval from this forum IMO
I think you misunderstood my intentions. I deliberately posted under challenges section.
So the first challenge is to fully read my initial post
And the actual challenge is to help me find and outfit my "perfect" boat.
There's no need for approval from anybody.

I have listed what special requirements/wishes I have and a few manufacturers/vendors that fullfil some of them more or less.
So I was hoping for further suggestions of boat builders I could consider.
And more info on how to buy a new boat. There's tons of information out there on how to buy an old/used boat and what to look out for. There's little/nothing on new boats. Or maybe there is but I didn't find it. So anything that could help me here would be appreciated.

And once I know more about the boat and buying process there's more to find out about options, equipment, etc.
And at the end there will be a boat I order and everything else I'll buy.

So I was hoping people help me in my challenge to get (design, outfit, purchase, ...) the boat I really want or at least get close.
Maybe I should have been more explicit in my first post.
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Old 26-10-2018, 11:53   #10
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Re: Yet another wannabe

if you want nice used 50' catamaran .. i'm guessing you have a LOT of money sitting around .. like $500000.00
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Old 26-10-2018, 12:19   #11
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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if you want nice used 50' catamaran .. i'm guessing you have a LOT of money sitting around .. like $500000.00
As I said in my initial post, money is not the concern here (and because of my special wishes I actually expect an additional 1 or 2 maybe 3 in front of the 5 in your number) and there's no need to discuss my financial status in more detail than that.

I had hoped actually that in all my posts I had made it clear that I'm looking for a new sailing catamaran.
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Old 26-10-2018, 12:40   #12
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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Thanks for answering!

While sailing will be a substantial part, it's mostly the going places part that interests me. Basically being abel to visit interesting places while bringing my own bed and living room and transportation and ...

Single handed only for short and easy trips, I like to be on my own from time to time. So it should be possible but it's not the main usage. And the goal ist to go around the world.

Thanks
That's why we got a boat, to bring the apartment along... When I was younger (I just turned 42, so I ain't dead yet tho) I could and did live out of a plastic grocery bag traveling asia and south america, got older, got a motorcycle and rode around the world, but when life catches up... yeah, it's great to have your apartment there with you. Which contains 3 cats and more indian spices than you can imagine But I digress... If you never dock, you can maybe get away with a bigger boat, but dang, that's a lot of cabins AND owners version... Docking is gonna be a challenge I think on a cat single handed anywhere. We're a 53 ft mono and I can sail her fine singlehanded, but if anything were to really hit the fan, it's at the upper range. Also, you don't need a hybrid, you got sails. Maybe nothing goes wrong with a high-tech engine, I don't know, but if you are gonna sail the world, get something with nice old rebored diesels and no electronics. It'll go forever, and you can fix it (or get it fixed) in the dinkiest port in the world, instead of waiting for diagnostic equipment or parts from seattle.... ok, that's my 2 cents, back to my beer on anchor off Marseille. Cheers!
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Old 26-10-2018, 12:47   #13
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Re: Yet another wannabe

[QUOTE=exploringmatt;2749151]Thanks for the welcome!


I think you misunderstood my intentions. I deliberately posted under challenges section.
/QUOTE]

My only challenge is to never read this thread again or risk it reading another post from you. Lucky for me I know how to do that
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Old 26-10-2018, 13:53   #14
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Re: Yet another wannabe

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My only challenge is to never read this thread again or risk it reading another post from you. Lucky for me I know how to do that
You're welcome



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That's why we got a boat, to bring the apartment along... When I was younger (I just turned 42, so I ain't dead yet tho) I could and did live out of a plastic grocery bag traveling asia and south america, got older, got a motorcycle and rode around the world, but when life catches up... yeah, it's great to have your apartment there with you. Which contains 3 cats and more indian spices than you can imagine But I digress...
That's my thinking
I'm a little older than you and I too used to travel more lightweight, tent, hammock was all that was needed...
But now more comfort is needed.

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If you never dock, you can maybe get away with a bigger boat, but dang, that's a lot of cabins AND owners version... Docking is gonna be a challenge I think on a cat single handed anywhere. We're a 53 ft mono and I can sail her fine singlehanded, but if anything were to really hit the fan, it's at the upper range. Also, you don't need a hybrid, you got sails. Maybe nothing goes wrong with a high-tech engine, I don't know, but if you are gonna sail the world, get something with nice old rebored diesels and no electronics. It'll go forever, and you can fix it (or get it fixed) in the dinkiest port in the world, instead of waiting for diagnostic equipment or parts from seattle.... ok, that's my 2 cents, back to my beer on anchor off Marseille. Cheers!
If it's only two cabins plus owner's cabin, that would still be acceptable, the Leopard 50 or the Sunreef 50 or 60 would offer the owner plus three, though. And I realize those are big boats. For docking single-handed, it's hard without any help, especially with boats this big but I saw videos/advertisements with joystick control and two motors and you could even remote control it from anywhere on the boat. What do you think of this? I know there's some risk for failure but I would only rely on it when alone. Most of the sailing will probably be with some kind of crew, but I need occasional time alone.
You are right, a simple diesel is the most reliable option and can get fixed almost everywhere. The only problem with that is I. I love technology, gadgets and stuff like that. I'm trying to find a compromise that satisfies my desires and gives good reliability and maintainability. That's why I liked those hybrids, everything is at least double. If the electric stuff fails there's still the diesel, if the diesel fails there's the electric motor, if both fail, there's the other hull. The electric part would be great for docking and similar tasks, the diesel when there's a need for power underway. And the sails for everything else.

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ok, that's my 2 cents, back to my beer on anchor off Marseille. Cheers!
Thanks a lot for your input, highly appreciated! Or maybe more appropriate since you are in Marseille: merci beaucoup (but shouldn't that be vin rouge instead of beer in France )
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Old 27-10-2018, 13:47   #15
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Re: Yet another wannabe

You're asking a lot of charity of people to respond to all this.

I would start a new post. And not try to "challenge" people. Don't mention budgets, front doors, hybrids, gadgets, etc.

Just tell them what you want to do on the boat. If it's liveaboard, how many people will be on it full time. How many guests and how frequently. Will they be staying overnight? Do you plan on any long passages? How many people will be going with you? Will they be passengers or crew?

Once you nail down how many fixed and permanent cabins and heads you want, you'll be able to decide on how much hosting you want to do. How much flexible space do you need. How much luxury?

Size has little relation to luxury. A Privilege Serie 5 is going to be more luxurious than any Leopard no matter how big.

Are you the type of person that would live in a 500 square meter home with just you and your significant other? Because that's what living on a 60' yacht is going to be like without permanent guests or family to help fill in the rest of the cabins and spaces.

And comparing a Leopard to a Sunreef because they both have forward doors is like looking at a used Ford Transit Van, Mercedes S600 and Bentley Continental GT Convertible and then deciding the Mercedes isn't a contender because it doesn't have a sunroof. So now all you need to do is decide is if the Ford or the Bentley is the vehicle for you.

It sounds a little ridiculous doesn't it? That's why I think you need to go to a few of the big boat shows. Take a year and go to the next three or four. Refine what you like and don't like. You're going to miss stuff after the first show is over. You'll have more questions and feel like you wish you'd thought more about other things. And no show is going to have all the boats you want to see. That's why you need to go to more than one.

While you're doing that you should be refining your list. You should be chartering these boats. Find out what it's really like to live on them for a week. Imagine yourself in different destinations if that's your long term plan. Is this a good boat to live on in high humidity at 95F? Does it have enough ventilation or will you have to run the air-conditioning constantly? Do you want a higher performance boat that can sail in light winds, or a heavier more luxurious boat that will have to motor in the same conditions?

Do all that and you won’t have to ask anyone what the right boat for you is. Though you might learn about boats and manufacturers you might not have otherwise known about, or get experience and advice from owners.
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